Forum's Choice

[Nick]

Trevor, did you still keep a 25" or longer scale...

I used 24.9" (632mm) on a Gibson 185-ish body shape.

Thanks Trevor, seeing as both you and Craig have used this scale & enjoyed the sound...why re-invent the wheel! I'll go with that should the twelve string win the poll

And DONT f&^%k up the compensation at the saddle!!!

Nut and saddle compensation is something to think about on a 12 string. Makes a big difference.

I'm just getting my head around Craig's saddle in his 6 pin tute, now I got to think about the nut as well!!?? I've never built with nut compensation, what would you say is the advantage/s of a compensated nut Trevor? (I've got your books to use as reference should I go down this route but may enquire of you further!)

[Trevor Gore]

I've never built with nut compensation, what would you say is the advantage/s of a compensated nut Trevor?

Plays more in tune to the equally tempered scale (less extraneous jangle) and therefore sounds better. For people who are bothered by so-so intonation, once they've heard the difference there is no going back. And you get twice the effect on 12 strings.

[kiwigeo]

I'm just getting my head around Craig's saddle in his 6 pin tute, now I got to think about the nut as well!!?? I've never built with nut compensation, what would you say is the advantage/s of a compensated nut Trevor? (I've got your books to use as reference should I go down this route but may enquire of you further!)

Because youve got paired strings with big differences in string guage the ramping at the saddle is a bit more challenging than on a 6 string. If the initial saddle placement is not spot on then you can find yourself right at the edge of the saddle with the ramping on some strings. Theres a thread from Craig on getting it right but IMO nut compensation would be a better way to go and Im definitely going to try it on my next 12 banger.

[Craig]

Because youve got paired strings with big differences in string guage the ramping at the saddle is a bit more challenging than on a 6 string. If the initial saddle placement is not spot on then you can find yourself right at the edge of the saddle with the ramping on some strings. Theres a thread from Craig on getting it right but IMO nut compensation would be a better way to go and Im definitely going to try it on my next 12 banger.

Martin , if I'm reading you correctly , it's not a case of having either a compensated nut OR a compensated saddle. To do the job right and have the guitar play in tune, it's a case of having both a compensated nut AND an individually compensated saddle . As Trevor mentioned ,, there's no going back once you've experienced the difference,

The ramping of the saddle isn't all that difficult to achieve. I used a saddle of 5 mm width ( from memory ) which gave plenty of room for good compensation and ramping

[kiwigeo]

Martin , if I'm reading you correctly , it's not a case of having either a compensated nut OR a compensated saddle. To do the job right and have the guitar play in tune, it's a case of having both a compensated nut AND an individually compensated saddle . As Trevor mentioned ,, there's no going back once you've experienced the difference,

The ramping of the saddle isn't all that difficult to achieve. I used a saddle of 5 mm width ( from memory ) which gave plenty of room for good compensation and ramping

Yes you're correct Trevor is talking about compensating both nut and saddle.

I also used a 5mm saddle on my 12 string but because the angle on the saddle slot when I routed it wasnt spot on I had issues with ramping some of the strings. Regardless....I do think you have a bit more leeway when compensatiing a 6 string.

[Nick]

With twice the number of votes so far, the 12 is looking like a reality at this stage Craig (although there is a week to go before the poll finishes) so a big thanks to both you and Trevor, it may just turn an average sounding guitar into something special....Nut & Saddle compensation it is!
Damn now I'll have to go and get a handle on all this new info (it's actually one of the fun jobs I enjoy with new builds )

[kiwigeo]

With twice the number of votes so far, the 12 is looking like a reality at this stage Craig (although there is a week to go before the poll finishes) so a big thanks to both you and Trevor, it may just turn an average sounding guitar into something special....Nut & Saddle compensation it is!
Damn now I'll have to go and get a handle on all this new info (it's actually one of the fun jobs I enjoy with new builds )

I'll be over in May to check out progress....

[auscab]

I voted for the

"smaller than a dready' twelve stringer (using my double back system) "

Just because I was wondering, whats a double back system ?

It's a method I first used on a Maccafferri build (shouldn't really say it's my method because it's probably been used before Nothing new in Luthiery! I just came up with my own ideas & theories) about halfway down this page and also on two subsequent builds Rob, here. I believe (without any hard scientific evidence or numbers to back it up! ) that it produces slightly more volume from a smaller body because the back is more active & less influenced (read damped) by the player's gut, which in my case is a major influence!
Here's, also, a short discussion on my idea's behind the method viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2844 if you are interested.

Thanks Nick, scanned through the Variations on a Macca thread last night. Amazing !!

Do you know how much more thick the top and braces of a 12 string would be compared to a 6 string?
Ive been curious about that for a while, and have never come across that information. Twice the tension, but surely not twice the top thickness and brace height ?

[kiwigeo]

[quote="auscab
Do you know how much more thick the top and braces of a 12 string would be compared to a 6 string?
Ive been curious about that for a while, and have never come across that information. Twice the tension, but surely not twice the top thickness and brace height ?[/quote]

Top on my 12 banger is Lutz spruce and is probably only a tad thicker than what Id go to for my 6 strings. Brace dimensions are same as on my 6 strings but I did add a third tone bar across the lower bout. Nearly 2 years down the track and no sign of bellying or other problems.

[Nick]

That's my thinking too Martin. To answer your question Rob, the bearclaw is a bit stiffer across grain (apologies to Trevor,Dominic & John et al, I don't take readings/deflection measurements e.t.c , I'm very much an old style "feel it between the fingers" type of builder) so will leave the top a tad thicker than I would normally and also I plan to use the X brace style with a smaller x bracing in the area behind the bridge. I think Bob Connor builds using this technique. I will start with the bracing a smidge higher than I would with a 6 string then shave down accordingly depending on what the top is telling me.

[Nick]

If you look up "cube rule" on this and other forums Rob, it will illustrate that it doesn't take much of an increase in height to exponentially strengthen up the brace. It's early in the morning here as I post & I'm not a morning person so putting my socks on is a tax on the brain cells! Specifics of the cube rule escape me currently

[Craig]

I made my bracing 10% taller than what I would on a 6 string . Virtually no weight increase . I used an Englemann soundboard as I thought it's properties would suit a 12 . You would normally leave Englemann a little thicker ( as I did ) but it depends on the qualities of the piece you are using. A slightly bigger bridge patch ( Rosewood in this case) .The completed soundboard wasn't much heavier than a 6 stringer.
I guess if I had intended to string the thing up with fairly heavy strings and tuned to concert I may have beefed things up a little more , but I didn't want to overbuild and have the thing sound crap like so many other 12's .
You'll note the three lower face braces , the first of which , I placed fairly close to the bridge patch area.

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The area above the soundhole I've made quite solid . The A frame bracing is ideal here and I didn't skimp on it's dimensions ( 5/16 " X 1/2 " ) with the upper transverse being 1/2 " X 3/4 "

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Another important consideration with 12 stringers which seems often ignored , is their playability. I've played way too many that have necks much too narrow . 1 15/16 " at the nut minimum

[kiwigeo]

Look at that frickin' lining will ya'. It's so neat and pretty it should be on the outside of the frickin' instrument.

[Matt Bach]

Look at that frickin' lining will ya'. It's so neat and pretty it should be on the outside of the frickin' instrument.

Was thinking this too and then noticed the inlay on the heel block!!!

[Nick]

Look at that frickin' lining will ya'. It's so neat and pretty it should be on the outside of the frickin' instrument.

Was thinking this too and then noticed the inlay on the heel block!!!

Don't you Aussies worry about such details Matt?
Thanks Craig for your layout & thoughts it's all very useful info for me at this stage! I have seen the triple bracing layout & was thinking I'd go down this route but also I've seen Bob's double X and thought that would add strength without compromising top movement also, so it's still up in the air as to which way I go at this stage.

[Craig]

Look at that frickin' lining will ya'. It's so neat and pretty it should be on the outside of the frickin' instrument.

Was thinking this too and then noticed the inlay on the heel block!!!

The guitar sports a soundport Matt . Whilst it's there for sound purposes it also enables those interested to take a bit of a look inside . Knowing this , I made sure the viewer would find it interesting The kiwi inlay is pretty close to the soundport as you can see . ( taken before finish )

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[Craig]

Thanks Craig for your layout & thoughts it's all very useful info for me at this stage! I have seen the triple bracing layout & was thinking I'd go down this route but also I've seen Bob's double X and thought that would add strength without compromising top movement also, so it's still up in the air as to which way I go at this stage.

Nick , you might find it interesting that Lowden now includes 3 lower braces on his 6 stringers.

[Nick]

Nick , you might find it interesting that Lowden now includes 3 lower braces on his 6 stringers.

Would that be to make it a Lowden Clear Craig?

[Craig]

Nick , you might find it interesting that Lowden now includes 3 lower braces on his 6 stringers.

Would that be to make it a Lowden Clear Craig?

[nnickusa]

Look at that frickin' lining will ya'. It's so neat and pretty it should be on the outside of the frickin' instrument.

I hope, one day, to make a guitar on which the outside looks as good as the inside does on this one.

Don't do anythiong by halves, hey Craig?

[kiwigeo]

Don't do anythiong by halves, hey Craig?

He takes an hour to park his car at the supermarket......the process involves giant straight edges, laser range finders and a surveyor's theodolite.

[Craig]

He takes an hour to park his car at the supermarket......the process involves giant straight edges, laser range finders and a surveyor's theodolite.

........Micrometer,, check ,,,,,, calculator , check,,,,,,protractor , check,,,,,,,,,, And the feeler guages ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,DON'T FORGET THE FEELER GUAGES ! ,,

[Lillian]

Don't do anythiong by halves, hey Craig?

He takes an hour to park his car at the supermarket......the process involves giant straight edges, laser range finders and a surveyor's theodolite.

I would suggest that you ditch the theodolite and go with a scanner. You'll need a robust laptop to be able to handle the point cloud, but I think its do-able.

Mobil scanning is da bomb.

[Craig]

I would suggest that you ditch the theodolite and go with a scanner. You'll need a robust laptop to be able to handle the point cloud, but I think its do-able.

Mobil scanning is da bomb.

G'day Lillian Great to see you about again.

Scanner you say ! . Hmmmmmm,,, O.K. , I'm on it . Always helpful as usual .

Not sure if we have the "Robust " brand laptop here in Australia Lillian...... I know we have Dell..........

Seriously though,, I think you guys may be having a bit of a go at me ,,,,,, I can tell,,,,

[Nick]

Seriously though,, I think you guys may be having a bit of a go at me ,,,,,, I can tell,,,,

Just jealous of the "kiwi" way of doing things Craig