bending ebony - it's a snap!

[graham mcdonald]

I knew it was a 'weld' something Confused
_________________
Graham McDonald
www.mcdonaldstrings.com

[kiwigeo]

Graham McDonald wrote:
Another way to do it would be to thin them down to 1mm and use twice as many. I did that a few years ago for an F5 mandolin where the client wanted rosewood bindings and that was the only way I figured I could do it around the scroll. You couldn't see the lamination when finished

cheers

Thats simply brilliant.... clapping
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One can never have enough tonewood

[Kim]

'Weldbond' is available from Bunnings and is definitely not standard PVA, I think it must have some acetone mixed with it and I have read it is 'catalyzed' PVA... WTF does that mean? Anyhow it is made in Canada and dries clear. I have done lots of repair work with this glue and it works really really well with all plastic bindings whether it be repair of, or a new installation but you do need to work quite fast.

As Graham suggest, plastic binding WILL swell. So you do need to wait for at least 24hrs before scraping back as this allows the glue to gas off and the bindings to contract again. Be warned, if you do scrape back before 24hrs then the bindings will sink back below level and look like crap.

Here is an image of my bottle both front and back, it looks to be available all over the place in AU these days.

img~
img~



Cheers

Kim
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[Nick]

Tim Mullin wrote:

Oops, I think you're right, Jim, so I deleted the post. Did another google here in NZ for "weldon" (not "weldbond") and found http://www.glueguru.co.nz/shop.php?func ... dddb78fc2c, so hoefully I've redeemed myself. Not the kind of stuff that you can cross borders with, so a local source is essential.
Tim

Always makes me bum twitch when I see Price: POA on an object Tim, means it's too friggin expensive if they won't advertise the price! Don't know if you have a 'Universal Plastics' up your way but if you ever do need some, I got a tube of glue they sell called AcriFix which wasn't exhorbitantly priced ( I think it was about $20 or something) and I used that on the plastic bindings on my Blackwood Selmer and they seem to be still hanging on.

Kim wrote:
I have read it is 'catalyzed' PVA... WTF does that mean?

Means they mix fresh cats with it Kim. Laughing
_________________
A handmade Guitar for $300 ? Phftt. Sure, give me a chunk of wood, a hammer & some 6 inch nails & I'll see what I can knock up for ya.

Nick Oliver
http://www.oliver-guitars.com

[DarwinStrings]

Have you used it for other joints like wood to wood Kim, I have been buying the LMI PVA and maybe this is a good 'duck up to Bunnings to grab a bottle' alternative (and a sausage sanga as well).

Jim

[Nick]

Toejam wrote:
'duck up to Bunnings to grab a bottle' alternative (and a sausage sanga as well).

Jim

Shocked Shocked They have the old snarler cook up outside your bunnies as well? Thought that was just a Kiwi thing Shocked
_________________
A handmade Guitar for $300 ? Phftt. Sure, give me a chunk of wood, a hammer & some 6 inch nails & I'll see what I can knock up for ya.

Nick Oliver
http://www.oliver-guitars.com

[tim mullin]

Nick O wrote:
Always makes me bum twitch when I see Price: POA on an object Tim, means it's too friggin expensive if they won't advertise the price!

Yeah, know what ya mean, Nick.
But at least this "Weldon" stuff comes with all the right smells -- the "Weldbond" is completely non-toxic -- can't be any good for my purposes, Wink

[Kim]

Toejam wrote:
Have you used it for other joints like wood to wood Kim, I have been buying the LMI PVA and maybe this is a good 'duck up to Bunnings to grab a bottle' alternative (and a sausage sanga as well).

Jim

I have not used it wood to wood Jim as it seems to get mixed reviews (very similar to the reveiws I have seen for LMI white with some claiming that it is too brittle) and I don't need to chance it. Probably be OK though, but then, so is any yellow glue/crosslink PVA really. I have heard all the spiel about this and that, but I seriously doubt if anyone has really had a glue failure with any PVA, even Selly's aquadhere, that could not be traced back to poor preparation, application and/or process.

Back OT...To me Weldbond does 'look' very much like standard PVA but it seems to dry a little more brittle, somewhere between CA and PVA. Maybe that the LMI white glue is just re-branded Weldbond??? Anyhow what ever it is it does seem to be the roo's shoes for plastic bindings giving that happy medium somewhere between hard enough to not creep yet soft enough to not shatter easily upon impact like CA can do.

Cheers

Kim
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[kiwigeo]

Weldbond is decribed as a PVA type adhesive not a PVC type adhesive. The MSDS doesnt say much about ingredients but it looks fairly inane compared to most of the plastic solvent glues. Its also describedas "vegan friendly" so that means if youve spent all your lunch money on tonewood you can live off Weldbond untill your next pay.
_________________
One can never have enough tonewood

[Lillian]

Toejam wrote:
That is a interesting one Lillian, it says it is a "nitro cellulose" glue. It also says it's no good for polyethylene or polypropylene so don't use it on your "rope" bindings Rolling Eyes

Jim

I guess its a good thing that I've only used it to glue nocks onto arrows.

Intellectually I understand its okay to use plastic bindings have benefits that wood bindings don't. I just like the idea of using all natural materials.

It also might be time for me to start looking at the tech sheets and getting an understand of the materials. Not sure I could tell you what the difference between polypropylene and polyethylene is.

[Allen]

Thanks everyone. I remember all those model airplanes in my youth, and I use to be able to buy that glue down at the corner store. Those days seem to be long gone though.
_________________
Allen R. McFarlen

[Luke]

Allen wrote:
Thanks everyone. I remember all those model airplanes in my youth, and I use to be able to buy that glue down at the corner store. Those days seem to be long gone though.

Yer and you could by slugs/ammo for your air rifle too at the corner shop
and those fantastic Choo Choo Bars I degress.
I have used Weldbond on lots of stuff and works well and doesn't smell like the good old Tarzan's grip that Graham mentioned.
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Cheers Luke

[Allen]

Thanks for the bottle images Kim. I used this glue a lot back in Canada, but never thought about it being different from regular PVA.

Does it strike anyone as odd that we are building instruments but struggle with some aspects that the big boys of manufacture figured out some time ago. They came to the conclusion that it was just too much trouble for wood bindings and settled on plastic of one sort or another. Doe's Joe Consumer really get all that concerned over the fact that those bindings are actually wood or not? I can't say that anyone has ever commented on the bindings I've put on an instrument other than rope. They all can see it is different, and comment on it. Most love it, and all want to know how it's done,a and how long it takes.
_________________
Allen R. McFarlen

[sebastiaan56]

There was a youtube clip of a diminutive asian woman binding an F5 mandolin at astonishing speed, might have something to do with practice as well.
_________________
make mine fifths........

[Kim]

Allen wrote:
Thanks for the bottle images Kim. I used this glue a lot back in Canada, but never thought about it being different from regular PVA.

As I recall Allen I first started using Weldbond when I bought some plastic bindings from Gerard Gilet quite a few years ago. Back then Weldbond was not regularly available in AU and Gilets kept it in stock for that very purpose. His web page back then was very basic being just a simple text list and next to this glue's entry it had in brackets (highly recommended for plastic binding) or words to that effect. Anyhow if you are ever stuck you can simply shave some plastic binding into a small container, cover with acetone and wait until they dissolve. This makes a great plastic binding glue.

Cheers

Kim
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[DarwinStrings]

That was the same thought I had Kim, maybe it is the same stuff re-labelled by LMI, the description, looks like PVA but dries hard sounds right. I can't find anyone who ships Sutherland Welles pure polymerised tung oil from the U.S.A any more (Garret Wade stopped) but while searching for it I was told that Lee Valley sells it re-branded it and they will send it by sea, which was great news for me. Oh and my mate said the same thing, he says he can glue or repair any edge band to MDF from PVC to ABS with Weldbond.

I think Nick that we probably stole the idea from you mob, just like we claim anything that comes from N.Z. that we like, to be our own Very Happy

Same here Lillian I have no idea the difference between polyethylene or polypropylene but I think it is the stuff they make that blue and yellow rope out of.

Interesting thought Allen I guess the big manufacturers are practical and us lot are just wood nuts

Jim

[Pete Howlett]

Weld-on is the stuff. Watch Taylor factory fridays to see how they do it. really useful instructional video and helped me move away from the security of cyno... the techniques are well filmed and very informative. Glad I'm not out on a limb on this because despite my misgivings, I love to see wood bindings - it's just I don't think they are a practical solution to the reason you have them.
_________________
Make 'em. Play 'em!

[J.F. Custom]

Allen wrote:
...Does it strike anyone as odd that we are building instruments but struggle with some aspects that the big boys of manufacture figured out some time ago. They came to the conclusion that it was just too much trouble for wood bindings and settled on plastic of one sort or another...

I'll use plastic if a customer specifically requests it, or to match a repair/era/style, but otherwise it's wood for me for the most part.

I think timber does perform quite satisfactorily for its intended use though I realize it could be argued that plastic does better in this respect. Personally I much prefer the look and feel, not to mention the options at hand in colour and grain to match or offset and otherwise tie in the whole guitar package. I feel it adds another level of quality and care given to the entire instrument crafting process.

I couldn't see it as 'odd' though Allen given we are not factory manufacturers. They make many decisions to improve speed and ease of manufacture that we dismiss or even baulk at. Granted, this is different as it is not related to tone or playability - factors often overlooked for the sake of speed and efficiency in their case. They are certainly not choosing it because it is better though, nor should we because they use it.

Fortunately we are not under the same time restrictions they are, making timber bindings or purflings a viable option once more. I for one am glad they mostly do use plastic - just another degree of separation between a factory instrument and a custom hand made unit should we choose to use it. Harder to use - well yes; but what part of our manufacturing style isn't in comparison to theirs? Did I mention I prefer timber bindings ? Laughing Wink

Jeremy.
_________________
J.F. Custom Guitars
www.jfcustom.com.au

Cannons Don't Kill People...
Pirates with Cannons Kill People.

[Kim]

I agree with all Jeremy has said in respects to timber over plastic. Timber does give that quality edge and accentuates the hand crafted look of an instrument. Wood also offers so many fantastic options to pull 'that' look together and the palette is endless on what can work with from subtle, to starkly contrasting.

But, when the job calls for black, just plain 'black' as that is what best suits the scheme, I would never waste money or effort on ebony simply because it offers absolutely no advantage aesthetically or functionally over plastic. The other thing to consider is that because of those reasons Dennis has explained, ebony can be a complete bitch to work and given that it need to be imported, and generally from the USA, you can't closely examine or feel what you are buying and therefore the temptation must be there for some vendors to move the unmovable when sending stuff OS.

What I am suggesting is that quite often in AU and NZ, we get second pick, the bottom of the barrel so to speak. Unfortunately this is a plain fact of life when our market influence is so small in relation to that of the USA domestic market and indeed of other parts of the world. So you really are play Russian roulette each time you buy on line, but even more so with these very fine grained dark woods like ebony because it is quite impossible to assess from an image on your computer exactly what you are ordering.

So there ...and by the way, I have never had a single glue failure when bonding plastic bindings with Weldbond. I have never used 'Weldon', but I am certain it works equally as well. (Even if you can't simply drop in to Bunnings for a snag with sauce and "O"rings and grab a tube at same time Laughing )

Cheers

Kim
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Last edited by Kim on Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:05 pm; edited 1 time in total

[Pete Howlett]

I don't know whether or not to shed a tear Kim Smile I think you have it great in Australia with all those funky indigenous woods, a market that is closer to Japan and the rest of Asia than anyone else, a dry climate to build in... need I go on. You want to be at the bottom of the pile - try doing it here in the UK?

I started building ukulele for the Hawaiian market when there were relatviely few quality batch builders there. KoAloha had just started up and Maui Music just didn't produce the quality for my client, Kamaka was totally indifferent to new technology or improving its market share. My client stocked their work but was still unhappy with the then 'lazy' attitude of hawaiian builders - his words not mine! G String, and all the others hadn't even been thought of.

My slotted headstock 6 and 8 string tenors should have been flying off the shelves. However, when anyone looked at the label which had to say 'Made in the UK' they often opted for an 'inferior' Hawaiian build. When I moved to the US and started to put 'Made in the USA' on my instruments, bang... no problem doing business in the US or Japan for that matter. Got kicked out of Ohio and back to the UK unable to scrape a living from an embryonic European market and a difficult export market (all the major US stores have carried my work at one time or other). It is only in the last 2 years that working this business full-time has been the least viable - and still my wife has to work to pay the mortgage when she should be slacking off and working down towards retirement.

I can't or rather dare not count the amount of money I have lost buying koa 'sight-unseen'. It's not uncommon for vendors to seduce you with an initial shipment of good wood then send you a pile of crap when you subsequently re-order. For instance: 3 years ago I bought 2 'instrument grade' boards from a leading koa yard advertised as mastergrade. When I got them, the curl extended 2" into the board, petered out to nothing. There were soft pockets of rot and splitting along the dark 'veins' in the board - a $1000 loss to me! With another supplier who stung me for close on $2000I had a year long dispute settling for a fraction of that amount in tenor koa sets advertised as mastergrade that turned out to be barely aa!. Now I only buy on eBay because I stand a chance of getting something I may, just may have seen IVL. With the dollar strong against pound sterling and shipping rates 3 times what they were last year I'm lucky if I can get anywhere close to what my American contemporaries are clearing on their ukes.

Sorry cobber but don't think you are so hard done by. And I haven't even got on the mahogany soap-box...

Spain has good quality stuff - Madinter and Maderas Barber are the suppliers there. You don't 'have' to buy from the US. Another thing - I was surprised I could get binding from Martin at a 3rd the price I pay for it here in the UK, even with the postage! Shopping around and buying from multiple sources is the way to go. Exploiting what you have in Oz is also a must.

If someone hasn't done it yet, they ought to set up a luthier supply house in Australia. Your proximity to the common hardwoods used in musical instrument making should mean you could purchase stuff at a good premium. I know there is a small internal market but there is also a good export market to be had to continents close to you. half of my current business is going to Northern Europe - the Benelux countries. They have not been so greatly affected by the recession and they pay well.
_________________
Make 'em. Play 'em!

[Kim]

My comments were directed in the main towards ebony Pete, in AU, if you want gaboon or macassar, it will require import, and like I said, that would normally be from the USA, especially if we are talking the small pre-cut orders that most of us on this forum deal with. So just like you guys in the UK, we to must roll the dice, but your point to investigate Europe is well taken and worth a much closer look. I do know that trying to buy larger quantities direct from source in India and Indonesia 'sight unseen' is extremely risky business, one really must travell to these countries and select in person if one does not wish to be ripped off and so enters the true worth of a good tonewood vendor.

You are also correct in what you say about it being wisest for us to utilise our own local timbers, in fact when it comes to dense hardwoods every bit as hard wearing as the ebonies and in many cases much more so, Australia is 'the' place to be because the god of all things groovy in hardwoods has most certainly been very generous to this country. Our land is literally covered with more different species of acacia then you could poke a errrm....stick at, 'but', as gorgeous as all this is, we don't really have any of that little black number in the wardrobe that can be worn on most any occasion.

As for a lutherie supply house here in Australia, well we are all very fortunate to have Tim Spittle of Australian Tonewoods now well established in the market. Tim supplies most all that a builder could need to get the job done, but unlike International suppliers, he also stocks a breathtaking array of indigenous species processed specifically for the needs of our craft and is very reasonable in what he charges for this service. Now 'that' is a rare find indeed.

Cheers mate Wink

Kim
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[Pete Howlett]

Thanks for filling us in - personally I have never bought binding. Chuck Moore buys guitar fingerboards for that purpose which is OK for ukulele. A guy local to me is selling Macassar ebony in length at a hideous price and tho I am tempted I'll resist... I used to make veneeered furniture in this stuff using the solid for edge lippings. Love it. And it bends better than African. If you are judiscious enough you can get almost all black macassar for bindings that would work.

I've just visited Tim's website. What a treasure Smile Am enquiring about tasmanaian blackwood to replace the now almost prohibitively expensive koa...
_________________
Make 'em. Play 'em!

[Allen]

You can't go wrong with Tim. He supplies me with an awful lot of wood for my needs, and I'm getting more people hooked on his offerings with the classes I'm putting on. I highly recommend him.
_________________
Allen R. McFarlen

[Kim]

Pete Howlett wrote:

I've just visited Tim's website. What a treasure Smile Am enquiring about tasmanaian blackwood to replace the now almost prohibitively expensive koa...

Give Tim a call Pete, he has lots of stuff not listed so if you explain to him exactly the kind of stuff your after he can dig around and perhaps email some images, truly worth the phone call.

61 8 62782187

Cheers

Kim
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Pull me Finga

[Allen]

Better yet, show up on his door step and ask for the shed tour. Cool
_________________
Allen R. McFarlen