What is "Hand Made"

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Re: What is "Hand Made"

Post by kiwigeo » Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:30 am

Deems Davis wrote:
This is all very fun but also pointless. It illustrates what my wife refers to as the Male Disease!
Yes all very true but it's what men do best :D

I've always wondered what women argue incessantly about???
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Re: What is "Hand Made"

Post by jeffhigh » Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:47 am

Women don't argue, they just bitch about their friends behind their backs.

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Re: What is "Hand Made"

Post by Steve.Toscano » Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:14 am

I personally think everyone here needs to get back in their shed making beautiful guitars with what ever tools they use to get the job done - planes, chisels, CNC, a stone axe, or a combination of all the above. :gui :gui

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Re: What is "Hand Made"

Post by peter.coombe » Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:29 am

I personally think everyone here needs to get back in their shed making beautiful guitars with what ever tools they use to get the job done - planes, chisels, CNC, a stone axe, or a combination of all the above.
:cl :cl :cl
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Re: What is "Hand Made"

Post by Nick » Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:31 am

felix wrote:I personally think everyone here needs to get back in their shed making beautiful guitars with what ever tools they use to get the job done - planes, chisels, CNC, a stone axe, or a combination of all the above. :gui :gui
Who says we can't do both? I have a chainsaw in one hand knocking out Archtop tops whilst typing this with the other hand, stopping occasionally to pick up a cold one with the same hand! All the time I'm translating "War and Peace" into Kiribati and using my left foot to write it onto the hand made parchment on the floor and my right is slotting a new nut. :roll: . Who says men can't multi-task?
And if any body said my guitars were beautiful, they were looking at somebody else's work :lol: :lol: Mine resemble the roughies Jeff was talking about. :wink:
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Re: What is "Hand Made"

Post by demonx » Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:39 am

Nick wrote: I think in this technological age most people would expect a 'handmade' article to include some form of mechanical input, you indeed could truly build a guitar totally by hand, have an output of 2-3 guitars a year and expect the customer to pay upwards of $20,000 per guitar (because of the amount of hours you've poured into it) but would they?
Keep going, after you've paid quarterly taxes, GST, insurance, overheads, if you were only making 3 guitars per year they'd have to be at least 50-100k for you to be able to make a living and a frugal one at that. Remember that generally speaking, in an "average" small business (that is above board) you only get a financial return of approximately 10%, the rest is expenses.

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Re: What is "Hand Made"

Post by kiwigeo » Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:36 pm

Nick wrote:[
And if any body said my guitars were beautiful, they were looking at somebody else's work :lol: :lol: Mine resemble the roughies Jeff was talking about. :wink:
How do you explain THIS then????
IMG_2152.JPG
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Re: What is "Hand Made"

Post by simso » Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:41 pm

I would be curious what grahams thoughts are of using this device, its not cnc, its totally hand operated, it gives an exact copy, so it is a true copy machine


Im being silly here, but Graham mentions a disclaimer maybe should be made when using, I have come up with something like this

Disclaimer: Dear customer. I built your guitar using tools more advanced than a chisel and plane, be advised that some cnc operations and copying operations were carried out, I also used a bandsaw/thicknesser and jointer during the fabrication process. I have used parts supplied by wholesale manufacturers on your build and these have possibly been made with injection molding machines, cnc machines and the occasional touch of the human hand. Please enjoy your guitar, kind Regards

Steve
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Re: What is "Hand Made"

Post by routout » Tue Jun 28, 2016 3:51 pm

Those things are a good Idea for arch tops ,get most of the wood off and finish by hand shall I venture to say. :D
John ,of way too many things to do.

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Re: What is "Hand Made"

Post by scripsit » Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:07 pm

Perhaps the 16th C methods should be compulsory:
http://www.lutesociety.org/pages/buildi ... al-methods

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Re: What is "Hand Made"

Post by kiwigeo » Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:13 pm

scripsit wrote:Perhaps the 16th C methods should be compulsory:
http://www.lutesociety.org/pages/buildi ... al-methods

Kym
Interestingly enough the lute doesn't lend itself to machinery methods as well as a guitar....the "back and sides" are a bowl made of staves and the top is more easily thinned by hand than with a drum sander.
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Re: What is "Hand Made"

Post by routout » Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:49 pm

True the Lute maker I met many years ago here in Melbourne did some amazing work and he had a well set up mold for them and it was not that slow a task from memory it was in the final finish.
John ,of way too many things to do.

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Re: What is "Hand Made"

Post by Graham Long » Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:01 pm

Steve, you're right, you are being silly.

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Re: What is "Hand Made"

Post by kiwigeo » Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:17 pm

No matter where this thread wanders you can be sure of one thing....The Australian/New Zealand Luthier's Forum is and always will be 100% hand made. The server the forum runs on is valve powered.....the valves individually handmade by highly skilled Russian boffins. The power to run the server is supplied by a large hamster wheel......the hamsters of course are hand fed.
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Re: What is "Hand Made"

Post by simso » Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:25 pm

Graham Long wrote:Steve, you're right, you are being silly.
Yeh I know. All is good but

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Re: What is "Hand Made"

Post by Bob Connor » Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:39 pm

kiwigeo wrote:No matter where this thread wanders you can be sure of one thing....The Australian/New Zealand Luthier's Forum is and always will be 100% hand made. The server the forum runs on is valve powered.....the valves individually handmade by highly skilled Russian boffins. The power to run the server is supplied by a large hamster wheel......the hamsters of course are hand fed.

Err! They're actually rats Martin. The hamsters got a bit cantakerous, started fighting with each other and got a bit expensive to feed so I fucked them off.

They were last seen jumping off a cliff somewhere near Arnt Rian's place so I think they were masquerading anyway.
Bob, Geelong
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Re: What is "Hand Made"

Post by Graham Long » Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:44 pm

Nuff Ced

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Re: What is "Hand Made"

Post by Nick » Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:16 am

simso wrote:Disclaimer: Dear customer. I built your guitar using tools more advanced than a chisel and plane, be advised that some cnc operations and copying operations were carried out, I also used a bandsaw/thicknesser and jointer during the fabrication process. I have used parts supplied by wholesale manufacturers on your build and these have possibly been made with injection molding machines, cnc machines and the occasional touch of the human hand. Please enjoy your guitar, kind Regards

Steve
"May contain traces of CNC." on every guitar case.

Just adding to the silliness. :wink:
Kiwigeo wrote:
Nick wrote: And if any body said my guitars were beautiful, they were looking at somebody else's work :lol: :lol: Mine resemble the roughies Jeff was talking about. :wink:


How do you explain THIS then????
Geez, I'd forgotten about that, not one of my best examples :oops: , started out building an Aluminium necked 12 string! I tried to cover up each mistake that I continually made and it ended up as that Frankenstein of a thing! Does a reasonable impersonation of a set of Vibes though! :lol:
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Re: What is "Hand Made"

Post by simso » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:26 pm

Brand new neck, customer wants supplied block inlay fitted and existing fret markers removed and replaced with Paua shell ones

Its revamping an old topic,

But

I was actually thinking of this exact thread today when doing this job and how much cnc is just another tool, but does the use of cnc as part of the job now stop it from being hand made or built or repaired.

I used the cnc in this instance for accuracy and neatness of one part of the job, the cnc component was 2 minutes 26 seconds, I used a battery drill for 3 minutes drilling out the old fret markers, and I spent the other part of an hr with sandpaper and spraygun, the spraying obviously also required me to use an air compressor and equipment.

So, is cnc simply a tool ??

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Re: What is "Hand Made"

Post by TallDad71 » Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:26 am

When something is made by hand it is crafted in such a way that a constant process of working, inspecting, reflecting takes place. The inspection and reflection informs the builder on the next cut that must be made.

If I drum sand a soundboard then I reflect after each pass, I bend, squeeze and listen to the piece and that informs my next cut. This is Hand Made.

Machine tools don't preclude the idea of being hand Made.

A CNC can be used sparingly to create a handmade product. I have to say that if you cut an entire guitar body with a cnc, the lack of reflection during the process means that it was not hand made but machine produced.
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Re: What is "Hand Made"

Post by simso » Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:08 pm

I like your explanation

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Re: What is "Hand Made"

Post by soundshooter » Mon Feb 20, 2017 8:57 am

If one was to make an inlay in a headstock for instance, with a drawing made with vectors on a computor and both pearl and head plate cut with CNC, nothing of the work has the element of hand involved. The work is not crafted, it is engineered and performed by robot not a hand. I think it would be untruthful to say that the headstock inlay was hand made. If sold as such I would be really disapointed to see the exact same inlay on another guitar or 100. How many roboticly made components before your hand made guitar is hand assembled?

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Re: What is "Hand Made"

Post by Fisherman » Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:49 am

I reckon if Torres was alive today, he'd have a 14" bandsaw and a drum sander at least...

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Re: What is "Hand Made"

Post by Jules93 » Thu Apr 18, 2024 10:25 am

In my opinion as soon as a CNC starts doing major components such as carving necks, making bridges ect
That’s when a guitar is no longer “hand made” which bugs me when company’s claim that they’re hand made but you go on a tour and they still reiderate hand made but there’s heaps of neck blanks being lined up on the CNC as the tour guide speaks
However if it’s only for custom inlays that doesn’t bother me as much cause they are so creative.

These days there’s not a lot of luthiers that do every single step by hand you’ll find more are using a combination of hand and power tools/machines (bandsaws, router, drill/impact driver and many more).
With todays standards as long as their hands are highly involved eg,

Using a routing jig to cut a tenon or dovetail (you’re controlling the router)
Using a side bending jig with full control over the jig (adjusting the clamps as the wood relaxes)
There’s probably plenty more but you guys get the point

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Re: What is "Hand Made"

Post by johnparchem » Sat Apr 20, 2024 3:42 am

I understand the issue. That is why I cut and split the trees I need to make my instruments. It took me awhile before I was able to master resawing the billets with my hand made saw. I feel bad that I am not able to make my own steel and do rely on steel stock. But I am comfortable still calling my guitars hand made. After all hand made is marketing term, I am not sure there is a standard. Personally I think if a luthier oversees the voicing of the plates and the final guitar it could be considered as that luthiers hand made guitar.

Unfortunately that runs into another controversy: when is one considered a luthier ...

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