Dont understand how some business's survive

[simso]

Just a gripe.

I do not understand how some business's that want to reach world market have some of the weirdest rules or license's

I like new things and happily support ideas in the industry.

About 5 yrs ago, we were seriously considering the plek guitar machine, cost of over 100k australian.

After months of talking and negotiating, it was time to go to the bank with the proposal of purchase and the company sent me all the contracting papers.

When I read through the papers it said, It said it required an internet connection for authorisation of the job it was a bout to do, it also said for every job I did I would be charged a fee, and every month I would get an ongoing service fee.

Seriously wt.... Im buying a hundred thousand dollar machine and your telling me I have to pay a franchise fee as well.

As you can guess we did not go ahead and surprise surprise the plek machine is really not making a huge impact in the maket place becuase the company has priced themselves out of international business.

[simso]

Now my newest gripe.

We have had a few enquiries regarding the fitment of true temperament frets.

I decided to contact the company and get some to experiment with to start with, as I like new ideas and inventions and this did interest me.

So we ordered what they call a kit in, fretboard and frets

I made a neck from one and decided that the other one I would approach as a customers job, they have an exisitng neck and want TT frets fitted

So I pulled the original frets, filled the slots and contacted the swedish company on recommendations on how to cut the new slots in, they came back you are not allowed to do that as you dont have a licence (copyright), if you want to cut peoples boards and fit our frets you need a licensing fee, minimum, order per month.

Really... Im buying there frets, fitting them to an exisiting guitar,

So the options are, buy frets and fretboard, remove customer fretboard, modify fretboard to duplicate customers inlay work, fit new board, repaint the neck.

So again another company with an interesting product, but doomed to failure

[kiwigeo]

TT frets.....I've never been convinced as to the sensibility of wanked up crazy frets to handle compensation. Surely a compensated nut and saddle do the same job and with far less hassle???? And no wanky copyright BS to deal with.

[simso]

Nope, they do not do the same job.

Compensated nut and saddle only get you so far.

They really are good on there intonation, just it wont take of due to there business sense, I for one wont now be fitting it to peoples guitars, solely because of the manufacturer, if not for there ideas, it would instantly be available to anyone in perth that wanted it.

Now like everywhere else, people will go mmm, thats interesting where can I get it done, ohh, no one in Australia is doing it, then never mind..

Steve

[kiwigeo]

Nope, they do not do the same job.

Compensated nut and saddle only get you so far.

If you stuck a blindfold on an average professional musician I reckon most of them couldn't tell the difference between instruments with saddle and nut compensation and a TT fretted instrument (bar of course the feel of the crazy fretting).

My main question is it worth the hassle of a fret system that's a pain to install (CNC mandatory?)...and repair...it's a classic case of micrometering the brick??? I suspect that a majority of people who play TT fretted instruments do so more for the look of the instrument rather than for practical reasons.

One question that comes to mind.....if you change string guage, action or string height at the nut.... how does that affect the accuracy of the TT intonation?? Do you have to go and re-fret your guitar??

[scripsit]

They build their fret systems for set string gauges and scale lengths, so any alterations will screw with the intonation.

Altered tunings are going to return things back to a normal fret board 'averaging' process, and in some tunings/keys make things worse.

Their own demonstration video has a shredding electric guy who is very careful not to bend any strings, which would seem to cut out a lot of useful techniques.

Most good acoustic players instinctively press harder on some strings to adjust for intonation issues which become apparent with certain chord fragments, double stops and the like.

It's a classic case of selling something to cure a non-problem.

Kym

[jeffhigh]

TT frets.....I've never been convinced as to the sensibility of wanked up crazy frets to handle compensation. Surely a compensated nut and saddle do the same job and with far less hassle???? And no wanky copyright BS to deal with.

I'll agree with you there Martin.
Nut and saddle compensation will get you all the way to 12 tone equal temperament.
Anything beyond such as kinked frets or special tuning offsets, may improve the harmonicity of some intervals in some keys, but cannot do this without worsening the results in other keys.

[routout]

The Plek ahh imagine what you could achieve with all that money ,I have worked around some pretty slick Machinery in my time that one is some ,if it aint broke don't fix it type Machine .I do think there is some great innovative gear out there for guitar repair and manufacture but with a limited repair audience and the price has to have some smoke and mirrors attached to sell a product.

[old_picker]

The Plek ahh imagine what you could achieve with all that money ,I have worked around some pretty slick Machinery in my time that one is some ,if it aint broke don't fix it type Machine .I do think there is some great innovative gear out there for guitar repair and manufacture but with a limited repair audience and the price has to have some smoke and mirrors attached to sell a product.

I agree with this.
here's a players take on it.
http://www.in2guitar.com/manmachine.html
It is of interest to note that this review states " Looking at the Plek website's step-by-step description of implementing the machine in manufacturing, it details how the final crowning and dressing is supposed to be done by the technician, by hand, between other steps feeding and operating the machine"

[simso]

The plek machine is a good draw card, not that we need one, but I am always interested in new products and have no issues spending money on them.

For info the criowning of the frets is done by the machine as well, just any final polishing if required is done by the tech.

But the TT frets, my latest investment into the foray is not going well, due to manufacturers "ideas"

Steve

[kiwigeo]

Hey here's an idea........TT fan frets!!!

[simso]

I am sure it could be done

Steve

[Ormsby Guitars]

It has been done.

TT quoted us $1800 for a fretboard and frets, installed on our neck blank. They claim they wear at a higher rate than nickel silver. Bitch to recrown. We have customers who will gladly pay that, but no thanks.

As for the Plek, they contacted us in 2006 I think. "we can set you up as the sole distributor and training centre!". When you look at the time it takes to set up for each job, its quicker by hand. Went and viewed the machine at Sydney Guitar Setups, and they didnt have too much nice to say about it.

And if you look at plek jobs done by Gibson, is REALLY comes down to the operator, not the machine, their plek work is terrible.

[kiwigeo]

TT quoted us $1800 for a fretboard and frets, installed on our neck blank.

Fek!!!

[simso]

Pretty obscene isn't it.

Took two months for them to send me an initial order.

When I finally got it, and they tell me I cannot retro fit it to a customers neck unless I use there fretboard, I was k, not interested any more.

I have now Two necks with tt frets, not going to ever do it again.

Steve

[simso]

As for the Plek, they contacted us in 2006 I think. "we can set you up as the sole distributor and training centre!". When you look at the time it takes to set up for each job, its quicker by hand.

The Machine, if you purchased would come in to its own in a store not really a repair shop. A store has staff that are being paid regardless, I agree a luthier of skill can far outperform the machine and end up with a better result..



Steve

[slowlearner]

So I pulled the original frets, filled the slots and contacted the swedish company on recommendations on how to cut the new slots in, they came back you are not allowed to do that as you dont have a licence (copyright), if you want to cut peoples boards and fit our frets you need a licensing fee, minimum, order per month.

I'd like to see them try and prosecute that copyright from Scandinavia.

But seriously, I think you've saved yourself a world of sadness. "True temperament" is a trademark, not a scientific fact.

[demonx]

Cole Clark have just announced the now use Plek for their fretwork and it reminded me of this thread!

Cole Clark + Plek, in expecting a lot of hate to follow!

[simso]

Lets see what happens

[jeffhigh]

Fretwork is an area I have NOT seen to be a problem with Cole Clark.
If they are using a Plek, it is undoubtedly because it costs them less than having a human doing it.

[Steve.Toscano]

Fretwork is an area I have NOT seen to be a problem with Cole Clark.
If they are using a Plek, it is undoubtedly because it costs them less than having a human doing it.

Spot on my thoughts exactly. From my (limited) experience their fret work is quite good.
It would purely be a cost saving exercise, can employ someone with less skill to set the guitar up in the machine, plus the time saving.

Lets see what happens with their fret work now? The funny thing is if it did go down hill, the cole clark fanbois probably wouldn't even notice.