The Next Classical

[seeaxe]

Hi All,

Haven't been posting much of late as I have been focusing on playing rather than building but...I am now planning my next build – a classical with a cedar top.

This will be classical No.4. No.1 was a kitset, which I was initially was quite proud of but now cringe at when I look at it (so I must have made some progress!) No2 was my first proper “from scratch” classical and was a Tassie Blackwood with Lutz spruce top, which the Forum kindly helped me choose the wood for. I am very happy with it and its the main guitar at the moment. A while after I built that, I had a hankering for a cedar top so I built classical No.3, a cedar/rosewood to the same style and plan, Torres bracing pattern. I built it fairly deep and heavy so it had good bass, which was what I set out to do in the first place (I like playing Bach pieces with drop D tuning). But it was quite weak in the trebles nearer the body and kind of switched off up past the 12th and the top end of the fretboard. I donated that to a worthy cause and moved on.

So with the next one I would like to improve on both the balance and the treble side of the sound spectrum.

The reason for the post is to solicit your views on how I might best achieve this.

Martin and a few others will probably advise me to buy the “Books” – that’s good advice, so I have. They are on the way as I write this and having looked again at the contents page for the design book, I cannot fail to learn something useful. I am also trawling the interweb for relevant articles so that I can at least form a plan of how to achieve what I want.

Having said that I freely admit I am not in any way a scientific or methodical builder – I would describe my building style as “relaxed”. My classicals to date are all built using the same mould, forms, bolt on neck joint, back bracing etc. The top bracing is Torresian and basically the same (more or less, but not exactly)

By keeping most of this the same but changing a relatively few elements, I hope to make an overall improvement on the past efforts. I prefer working with just wood, I'm not keen on CF/falcate bracing, but then I haven't read the books yet, so I might change my mind on that. I like to keep things as simple as I can.

So far I conclude that the soundboard and its bracing are the things to focus on, and that's where I am putting most of my effort. I'd like to try a different pattern. But will Fleta be better? Or Hauser grouser? Cant think of a rhyme for Kono. Or should I just stick with Torres and spend more effort voicing the top which is something I have not really made a serious attempt at yet.

Any views on this????

Also, I have a bunch of wood left over from my previous WAS episodes, all of which will look OK. I have some mahogany, BH sassafras, iroko and lots of kwila. Given that that the b and s don’t play such a strong role in tone, does anyone have any views on which of these I should use or is it worth shelling out for some more IRW? I don't really mind spending the dosh, but I am more interested in what its going to sound like than what it will look like. It still needs to look pretty of course. And looks wise, I favour the darker hues with the cedar top and none of what I have is particularly dark.

Seeing as the your advice last time was great, any thoughts o wise ones? – especially the classically wise ones?????

Cheers

[Mark McLean]

Richard
If you have the books my advice is have a go at the falcate classical. I have just been doing my first one (can't tell you how it has turned out yet) and I can testify that the CF overlay to the bracing, and the other new skills that you will need, are not too demanding. I am a "relaxed" builder too! And have done about the same number of instruments as you. I found that it was nice to be trying some new methods but it certainly did take me way outside my comfort zone.
Mark

[curly]

I can't add anything useful as to the build process . What I would say though is that when you are chasing that sort of fine , nuanced improvements in sound , pay close attention to your timber . Wood is not just wood . Some is better . Same species , quartered properly can vary hugely . I haven't handled enough cedar tops to speak of it particularly . I have resawn old California redwood ( red pine ) skirting boards and architraves for soundboards and they do vary from floppy to very stiff . Same for King Billy . Without a doubt the best soundboard stock I have resawn and handled was King Billy . Most though is well on the floppy side .
Pete

[seeaxe]

Thanks Mark and Pete

Pete, I am going to stick with cedar but take your point, I have a couple of budget cedar tops and hopefully a local source for better ones, so I will try a few before settling on the final one.

Mark, I'm not sure how you can be relaxed and outside your comfort zone at the same time but I suspected I would have a few people suggest I go that way. I'll definitely try one in the future. But if I am going into this build with an truly open mind, then I don't want to rule it out.

So can I ask those who have built both traditional and falcate bracing for classicals what you hear are the main differences in tone when you are done? Are they louder brighter, bassier? Being a leftie I am not ever likely to be able to compare them myself until I have built one....

After having just written that I can already hear a little voice in my head already saying ".....why not build one of each, then you can compare........." Its a thought.

Has anybody already done that???

Cheers

[seeaxe]

Having posted the above, I have been having a look in the Book specific page and am finding a few references to classicals in there. I have spent much time in there in the past. I'll keep looking but if there are particular threads I should be reading, let me know. Will also do a search.

The gallery thread in there is pretty impressive!

[Nick]

Martin's getting into the classical Falcate style so he may chime in and John Parcham looks like another font to drink from with regards to "Classicate" guitars.

[seeaxe]

Thanks Nick, just read Johns thread on his one, and the post mortem was really useful. John if you are reading this, your posts are very informative and exactly why this is a great forum to be a part of. Thanks for making the extra effort. The guitars look stunning too.

Being a relaxed (=lazy) builder I have to say, I'm a bit put off by the effort and gear upgrade I am going to need to go down the falcate path. But I realise nothing is going to get better without some effort on my part in one direction or another.

I'll see if anyone else chimes in but carry on with the research and googling in the meantime.

Cheers

[kiwigeo]

Martin's getting into the classical Falcate style so he may chime in and John Parcham looks like another font to drink from with regards to "Classicate" guitars.

I've got a falcate braced classical that's been on the bench for some time. Had to make a new neck but it's back on track.....will post a few pics once it's ready for finishing.

[johnparchem]

I am also a relaxed builder, before making my first falcate classical I had made 3 Hauser 37 style guitars. I was able to use the falcate brace molds I made for my falcate SS on my classical.

In terms of difference. The guitar has strong sonic features, the are loud, but they still turn on or have a rich voice in quiet passages. It responds very quickly to the player. A good player is able to get a lot of sounds out of it. The notes sustain well. Very balanced across the strings as well.

Also of note is I had my classical guitar instructor play all of my guitars. After the falcate classical guitar he commissioned me to make him one. I am still working on it as I want to make it right.

[Jim watts]

I've made a Fleta off the Courtnall plans, it's my understanding though that the plan is not very representative of Fleta's instruments. It's about 7-8 years old now, Cedar top and EIR. I was very disappointed with it at first, for the first few years as a matter of fact and it didn't get played much, but over the course of the last few years I've started playing more and using it daily, it's turned into a lovely instrument over the years but it took a long time.
Lately I've been playing around with the Byers Dual fan system and those come out like canons.

John, how are the trebles on your falcate classical?

[johnparchem]

The treble string on my first falcate classical with the top resonance about 180 the E sting sounds OK, actually really good up to the D.

On the 8 string classical that is pitched at a little above 190 the treble is really strong. That guitar is really loud as well, although I am not sure it is as responsive as my first falcate classical. I have only had the 8 string strung for a week or so it will be interesting to hear how that one develops.

[56nortondomy]

I'm sorry if this is a stupid question. Are the falcate braces radiused on the bottom? I can't find any reference in the book about it ( not unusual for me not to find something, just ask my wife )
Wayne

[kiwigeo]

I'm sorry if this is a stupid question. Are the falcate braces radiused on the bottom? I can't find any reference in the book about it ( not unusual for me not to find something, just ask my wife )
Wayne

No they're not. They get glued in with top in a radiused dish and the top will generally maintain it's arch. If you leave the top for a long period before getting the bridge glued in then sometimes the top will flatten out a bit. I'm having that issue with the current build....the top has flattened out by about 0.75mm. My fix is to use a radiused caul when gluing the bridge on to bring the top back to radius.

I've seen one guitar school shape the bottom of falcate braces in a dish before installation...it seems to work for them.

[56nortondomy]

Thanks Martin, I'm thinking I might try a falcate classical soon, so I'm trying to nut out a few things.
Wayne

[kiwigeo]

Thanks Martin, I'm thinking I might try a falcate classical soon, so I'm trying to nut out a few things.
Wayne

If building a bolt on bolt down necked classical as per G and G then it's important to read and understand the sections of the book that explain the BOBD neck before doing the build. It's absolutely critical that the neck wedge and flattening of the upper bout are done correctly or things just wont come together.

[56nortondomy]

I think i'll be sticking to the normal neck joint that I use. That bobo scares the hell out of me. It'll probably be a bit of a hybrid build ( I can't understand that black volume at all, way over my head. Trevor told me that's where all the good stuff is. I just don't get all those formulas ). Got no idea about all the frequency stuff.
Wayne

[seeaxe]

Also of note is I had my classical guitar instructor play all of my guitars. After the falcate classical guitar he commissioned me to make him one. I am still working on it as I want to make it right.

Thanks John, that's the kind of comment I was looking for.

Jim, thanks too, I will have a look for data on the dual fan system you mentioned.

Thanks for the comments everyone, much appreciated

[Jim watts]

seeaxe, there's currently a dual fan guitar build by Michael Lazar that's being documented here:
http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/v ... e9d6f39cb8
if your interested.

[seeaxe]

Jim, thanks for the link. I had already got to Michael Lazar, but had not found that build thread.
Richard

[seeaxe]

Got home this morning after a month away to find.....the books had arrived. Going to wait until I have caught up on my sleep before launching into the design book!

Happy camper

[kiwigeo]

Got home this morning after a month away to find.....the books had arrived. Going to wait until I have caught up on my sleep before launching into the design book!

Happy camper

Welcome to the Gore-Gilet Army Private Seeaxe

[seeaxe]

Reporting for duty sergeant kiwigeo!

Page 18.....simple harmonic dilution...I mean motion. I need a wine!
At this rate I'll be an alcoholic before I get to the build volume.