An Introduction and question - two for one special!

[hazboticus]

Hi Everyone,

I just thought I would introduce myself before I start asking heaps of questions and posting around the forum.

First off my name is Harry and I dwell in Sydney! been floating around this and a couple other forums for a while now (helps with the boredom of office work) and decided to buck up and join you guys on here as the things discussed are a lot more local and close to home - the amount of times people suggest a product only to have it not available in Australia or cost a zillion dollars in shipping

I first got into guitar building and lutherie about 3 years ago (mostly electric) and it eventually graduated from buying kits and fixing guitars to having my own designs and custom builds for friends and family out of my lunchbox sized shed in my back yard (its tragic yet oddly effective).

Most of my builds currently are electric LP/JR hybrids (I am small and I wanted to design something simple and light) but I hopefully will get the stones to build some acoustics when I get a bigger shop - bending wood seems like an activity that requires elbow space

here are a couple photos of things I've built/working on so you have something to look at;

First iteration (Australian blackwood on mahogany with rock maple and rosewood neck)


second iteration (American Walnut on Mahogany with a Mahogany/ebony neck)



Third Iteration (Queensland Maple on mahogany with a not yet finished Mahogany/Ebony Neck)



and the one I made for my dads 60th - because I am a good son or something like that.



The colour was by request

Cheers

[hazboticus]

And I totally forgot the question

I have read most everything that has been posted on here about Mirotone 3220 as I am looking to make the switch from a hard varnish to lacquer for the added strength and durability. Has anyone ever shot this stuff from an electric spray gun? Its all I have at the moment and I dont know if I should bother giving it a shot or just kitting out with a compressor and cup gun!?

[kiwigeo]

Welcome to the forum Harry and thanks for the introduction.

Im not an elecetric builder and I French Polish all my builds so Ill let those with more expertise on same answer your questions.

Cheers Martin

[hazboticus]

Welcome to the forum Harry and thanks for the introduction.

Im not an elecetric builder and I French Polish all my builds so Ill let those with more expertise on same answer your questions.

Cheers Martin

Thanks Martin! I wish french polishing would be durable enough for an electric - its the most enjoyable finish to apply

[Allen]

The problem with electric spray guns is that not one that I've ever seen will atomise the paint properly to get a quality finish when you are using something like mirotone or automotive paints. These all have a much thinner spraying viscosity than what that style of gun is designed for. Which for the most part is a far heavier product like house paint.

[hazboticus]

The problem with electric spray guns is that not one that I've ever seen will atomise the paint properly to get a quality finish when you are using something like mirotone or automotive paints. These all have a much thinner spraying viscosity than what that style of gun is designed for. Which for the most part is a far heavier product like house paint.

Allen - that's what I figured and has generally been my experience. I have sprayed varnish with the gun as a primer coat but it feels like painting a wall and not like applying a finish (despite the gun saying it is designed for lacquers). I might try to see if I can get a decent atomization with a 50-50 thinned varnish as a test, if not Ill just chuck the sucker out.

Any advice on starting up with spray gear? I know you are the resident expert but Im not sure the power of the compressor or type required for this type of work, all foreign territory for me.

[woodrat]

Welcome Harry....Love the handle Hazboticus....sounds like an ancient Roman Gladiator!

Nice axes you have made there....

cheers

WR

[Allen]

I would go for the largest compressor I could get that still ran on single phase. I've got a McMillian one at 3 hp. It will run a gun reasonably well. Still kicks in while spraying, but at least can keep up. The last thing you want is to run low on air while in the middle of a coat.

As for guns, The sky is the limit as far as cost goes. I've had many over the years that were between $700 and $1,000 but they are overkill for what most people would ever need, or for that matter be able to tell the difference from a more moderately priced gun.

If you want to go for something that works well, and doesn't break the bank, then a Star brand gravity feed is a pretty decent gun. I've got their HVLP one that I think was around the $250 mark, and it's quite good. They also have one that is under $200 that is quite acceptable as well. Liam has that one and I've used it a fair bit.

[hazboticus]

I would go for the largest compressor I could get that still ran on single phase. I've got a McMillian one at 3 hp. It will run a gun reasonably well. Still kicks in while spraying, but at least can keep up. The last thing you want is to run low on air while in the middle of a coat.

As for guns, The sky is the limit as far as cost goes. I've had many over the years that were between $700 and $1,000 but they are overkill for what most people would ever need, or for that matter be able to tell the difference from a more moderately priced gun.

If you want to go for something that works well, and doesn't break the bank, then a Star brand gravity feed is a pretty decent gun. I've got their HVLP one that I think was around the $250 mark, and it's quite good. They also have one that is under $200 that is quite acceptable as well. Liam has that one and I've used it a fair bit.

Right on - thanks for the tips! I was hoping I could get away with something like this;

http://www.bunnings.com.au/project-air- ... r_p6270588
however for a little more I can double the capacity;
http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/online ... 0101#Combo

gun wise I figure I can start with something like;

http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/online ... 0067#Cross

If only you could brush on lacquer

[jeffhigh]

I have the Stanley 2.5hp belt drive from supercheap
The price varies between the $399 current online and $799. I got it for $399 and for that it's a hell of a good buy.

[Allen]

The fluid tip is too big on that gun for Mirotone. You would want between 1.2 and 1.4mm tip.

The $99 compressor wouldn't do anything other than pump up the tyres on the pushie.

I would be suspect of the Blackridge Compressor as well. Any compressor that I've seen with that style of pump just hasn't been up to the task.

Don't forget that you will also absolutely need an oil / water separator in line. Otherwise you are going to have nothing but grief. In most cases a compressor that is a higher initial price will include one.

[demonx]

The second of the compressors you've posted would be the absolute minimum, in reality it'd be better to have something bigger. You want to be able to spray the whole guitar without the compressor kicking in, as when the compressor kicks in to charge there is a chance you are not using full pressure, which will effect your job.

It's kind of a catch 22, as the less you spend on a compressor, the more you need to spend on the gun, as a decent HVLP will use less air, meaning the compressor doesn't need to be as big, but if you get a cheap gun that is an air hog, then you need a massive compressor to run it.

I have two McMillian compressors here, both are 15a, one is closer to the $1000 range and the one I use for paint is closer to the $3000.00 range. The cheaper of the two is capable of painting, but I wouldn't run an air hog gun by it.

My advice is hunt around for a good second hand air compressor, as it looks like you're on a tight budget and you really won't get something ideal for a couple hundred brand new. They're always on ebay and you may get lucky.

Also make sure that whatever gun you buy either comes with or you add to it a air gauge, the reg on the compressor will have one, yes, but you NEED one at the gun to know what the pressure at the gun is, as a lot of pressure is lost through the airlines. Also you will need a moisture trap on the compressor to remove water from the lines.

[hazboticus]

Right on thanks so much everyone for chiming in!

It really seems like switching to spray might be a bit beyond my budget and facilities at the moment but its always good learning! I got my bandsaw (10mm throat hobby level) off gumtree for 50 bucks with a blade and it has been one of the best finds ever - ill keep an eye out for a resonably priced compressor and jump on it if I can find one.

Might have to stick to brushing my finishes on for a bit longer! I might even be able to find a brushing lacquer that could work but I am fairly certain Mirotone 3220 doesn't like to be brushed. Anyone come accross anything that plays nice with a brush?

Sorry for asking 10 zillion questions - I just figure you might as well ask the experienced guys rather than trial and error, I screw up enough timber as it is

[demonx]

As painting requires so much more time, these days I add about $500 onto the price of a painted guitar. My entry level guitars I finish with Danish oil. It's simply wiped on (in two stages), left to harden and then scuffed and polished.

The oil is cheaper to buy, product wise, much less time involved in the application and finishing.
The oil does not protect the timber as much as a painted finish
The oil does not look as nice as a painted finish, but some people actually prefer the oil to paint, so it caters for those customers as well as those on a budget.

Mahogany with clear paint:


Mahogany with Danish oil:

[woodrat]

Hi Harry, thats a good question regarding brushing lacquer....I believe Behlen (US brand that carbatec stocks some of their products) have a brushing lacquer. I often brush small repairs with 3220 and use it thinned quite a bit. Once cut back you cant tell that the bit was brushed.

WR

[hazboticus]

Hi Harry, thats a good question regarding brushing lacquer....I believe Behlen (US brand that carbatec stocks some of their products) have a brushing lacquer. I often brush small repairs with 3220 and use it thinned quite a bit. Once cut back you cant tell that the bit was brushed.

WR

Sounds good! I know some guys in Melbourne stock their stuff but I should definately go talk to the guys at Carbatec they might have something.

I tried a new finish on the weekend anyway and Im pretty happy with it (3/6 coats in) it would be horrifying for acoustic as its a urethane but Its crystal clear and goes on with an incredible gloss -

[GregL]

Hi Harry,

That looks great! Well done!
So is that urethane brushed on?

Thanks,
GregL.

[hazboticus]

Hi Harry,

That looks great! Well done!
So is that urethane brushed on?

Thanks,
GregL.

thanks!

yea I predominately use brush on finishes - I have used rattle can nitro for some vintage correct stuff I built but for my work its all brushing.

This stuff is Feast Watson Floorproof Pro, sold as a premium floor grade urethane finish. Its so clear i can see the bottom of the can and is apparently strong enough to only need 2 coatings (Im doing 6 cause I plan on rubbing it out by hand).

As far as brushing finises go its not the easiest I have ever used, since its targeted at floors it has that added durability I crave however its really low viscosity so its tricky to avoid runs (not designed for vertical application).

Significantly better than the varnish I was using before for solid bodies - especially with vivid colours as it doesn't have any yellowing elements and its tough as hell....and expensive $35 a litre....

[GregL]

Hi Harry,

Thanks for the info. Where did you get your Feast Watson Floorproof Pro? I could only find FW Floorclear on the Bunnings website. (I'm in a regional area, so anything more exotic than Bunnings I have to get online). Also, it seems that FW recommend not using FW Floorproof Pro directly on fresh timber, did you use an 'undercoat'?

Thanks,
GregL.

[hazboticus]

Hi Harry,

Thanks for the info. Where did you get your Feast Watson Floorproof Pro? I could only find FW Floorclear on the Bunnings website. (I'm in a regional area, so anything more exotic than Bunnings I have to get online). Also, it seems that FW recommend not using FW Floorproof Pro directly on fresh timber, did you use an 'undercoat'?

Thanks,
GregL.

Greg - I got the last can at my Bunnings but they definitely stock it - might be worth giving them a buzz as the Bunnings website is rubbish. It comes in 1l or 4l as well!

I believe their reasoning behind this is to prevent shrinkage or any kind of finish issues around floorboard warpage and probably isnt the most applicable to instruments however I always use a shellac binder/sealer coat. Since this stuff is a urethane Id advise pore filling with something Like Z-poxy under it though as it adds a bit of depth that urethane doesn't, and solves the bare timber issue. With stuff like Varnish you get a significantly more natural finish but it doesn't wear as hard as this.

Are you working on an acoustic or electric?

[GregL]

Hi Harry,

Thanks for the FW info, I'll look for it at the local store.

As for "Are you working on an acoustic or electric?", I'm a very slow builder - glacially slow - I've made an electric, a StewMac acoustic kit 000, and am currently slowly finishing a uke. This info is for a possible future "Les Paul"-type electric build. I'm also planning a few more acoustics, an electric slide guitar, and an electric bass... "one day"...

Thanks,
GregL.

[hazboticus]

Hi Harry,

Thanks for the FW info, I'll look for it at the local store.

As for "Are you working on an acoustic or electric?", I'm a very slow builder - glacially slow - I've made an electric, a StewMac acoustic kit 000, and am currently slowly finishing a uke. This info is for a possible future "Les Paul"-type electric build. I'm also planning a few more acoustics, an electric slide guitar, and an electric bass... "one day"...

Thanks,
GregL.

nothing wrong with slow - probably better really. Better than my approach of 'make every mistake possible to learn and apply on next build' approach. I really want to make a uke!!!!