Profiling sides for a Manzer Wedge styled instrument?

[Bob Connor]

Anyone have any thoughts about building side templates for Linda Manzer wedge guitar?

I want to try a teardrop Weissenborn styled instrument with the back angled, so that the top dips away from the player, thus making the left wrist angle a little more ergonomic and comfortable.

I decided on a teardrop because it may be easier not having to deal with a waist.

I've seen some people who cut the taper with a Japanese saw after bending the sides but I'd like to profile the sides prior to bending if possible.

The only method I can come up with is to bend some full length sides and then use flexible cardboard to create the templates. using "guess-ometrics".

The top and backs of my lap slides are flat and the depth of the "wider" side will be slightly deeper than a traditional Weiss so as to maintain body volume.

I may just have to make two of them - one standard (to get the template off) and a second with the wedge. It'd make for an interesting comparison in sound I guess.

Any suggestions gratefully accepted.

Regards

[DarwinStrings]

Maybe 3D design software or cut a small scale one out of a chunk of radiata then take templates off that and scale them up.

Jim

[ozziebluesman]

I'd make a cardboard model with some rough bracing inside just to keep the shape to see how the playing position feels. I like the neck right out on the end of my left leg almost on the knee so the left hand address the string comfortably.

Cheers

Al

[kiwigeo]

Bob....I have no intention of raining on your parade or sound ing like a PC namby pamby but I believe Linda Manzer is a bit sensitive about the use of her wedge idea. I recall reading on her website that she doesn't mind people using her idea as long as it's clearly acknowledged. This from Linda's website:

"I am often asked by other builders/luthiers if they can use the Wedge design innovation on their own guitars, and my answer is "yes." But as a courtesy, I would appreciate receiving credit for my design innovation, especially now that it's catching on with many builders, and larger companies are incorporating it into their guitars."

PS sorry I missed you in Adelaide......I got called away to work a day early. Will definitely be around next time you pop in to Adelaide and therell be gallongs of compensatory Guiness

[jeffhigh]

Here's how to do it in an entirely graphical method
Draw a full scale plan, and a centreline elevation underneath it
Include your longitudinal back radius on the centreline elevation
Mark around the edge of the plan at about 25mm intervals and project those marks down to the centreline elevation
Now draw a diagram of you back brace radius, and the angle you want across the body.

Now draw your initial side profile by marking out the side length from the tail and marking it at 25mm intervals.
Use calipers to transfer the height at each of these points from the centreline elevation.

Now measure the width across the body at each point, use a ruler to measure across the brace radius and deduct the offset from your initial sided profile mark. this is your unwedged profile
Use a similar technique with the diagram you have produced for the body angle, to get a up and down offset at each position and then measure up and down from the last mark for the unwedged profile and you will have an upper and lower template
Takes about as long to actually do it as write it.
If any of this does not make sense just ask

[pat foster]

Bob,

Here's what I do, courtesy of Colin Symonds on the Luthier Community. Much like what jeff described.

I don't know if you're using an external form, but this methods works best that way. I use a dish so I'll refer to a dish, though it could also be a flat surface if there's to be no dome.

First, I line the perimeter of one edge of the form with masking tape wide enough to for the curve in the z-axis. Put the form on the dish and use spacers to hike it up off the dish. When I do this, without a wedge, the form ends up parallel to the dish laterally, but higher at the neck block by the amount of taper I want from neck block to tail. In this case, you'll also vary the height laterally, based on the wedge delta. Since each of the sides for a wedge instrument will be different, this would be done for each side. In guitars without a wedge, of course, you only need to do one since the side profiles would be the same unless there's a cutaway.

Cut a rough template blank, big enough that the side template can be drawn onto it. Mark the blank to show the depths you want at each end.

sidetempldrwg.jpg (112.84 KiB) Viewed 17058 times

Then use a spacer, like a washer, that will allow you to draw a line "parallel" to the dish (or reference surface) onto the tape. I don't know if a washer would work well for a wedge, but you get the idea. Also, mark the seams from the form to indicate the length of the side.

DSCN0861.jpg (110.6 KiB) Viewed 17058 times

Peel the tape off the form and stick it onto the template blank, lining up the long line on the tape with the depth marks on the template. There's one curve for one side. Repeat as needed.

Pat

[Bob Connor]

Martin - I'm aware of Linda Manzer's creative commons licensing and I was intending to give credit there although the reason for doing this is totally different from what she originally intended. I will certainly be contacting her about this and send through some photos. But absolutely the idea came from her wedge design.

Great idea Jeff. I will need to do two centre lines below the profile as both sides will have to be tapered. The side closer to the player will need to start tapering from the centre of the lower bout. So I think I'll draw it and then mock it up in cardboard as Alan suggested.

Pat - that's the way I generally draw up side templates (also pinched from Colin)

The top and back are flat on these - no radius, which will eliminate complexity.

Thank you for the input.

Regards

[kiwigeo]

The easiest way to get a edge happening.....

1. Drink shitloads of Guinness.
2. Draw up the plans aiming to build a perfectly symmetrical instrument.
3. Drink another 6 pints of Guinness.
4. Do the build. Odds are the instrument will end up totally lop sided and arse about face with a nice wedge happening.

[Bob Connor]

I'm going to build a normal teardrop first so I can check measurements against it.

Regards

[Trevor Gore]

A number of makers, including Al Carruth, who is usually pretty accurate about these sorts of things, have identified wedge style guitars pre-dating Manzer's claim. So although Linda might have independently arrived at the design, it seems she wasn't the first.

By Al Carruth:
"There is a patent for a wedge guitar design to a guy named Smith, issued in 1968, iirc. I've got a copy some place."

Original reference here.

Actual patent here, but it was in 1969 (close enough for jazz).

[matthew]

Double Bass makers have been building basses with non-parallel rib edges (effectively a wedge) for some time, too. Jean Auray (France) does this, for one. I don't think he would have copied Manzers design, it's more a response to a functional need.

Does anyone credit the trad guitar makers with body outline styles or funny shaped soundholes and so on?

What was it Picasso said about copying and stealing ideas?

Don't hold back, just do it.

[P Bill]

I'm reading Paul Kelly's biography. He sez," why waste a good song? " In one song he has reused his own work,
Goanna and the Go Betweens. Quite up front about it.

[Ormsby Guitars]

Whilst it may be true that someone else originally thought of the idea, Linda has made it a trademark of her work, and brought the idea to all of our attention.

[Bob Connor]

Here's progress on the first one.

The back's on now and should be binding it today.

It'll make a great reference for the wedge shape.

[woodrat]

A number of makers, including Al Carruth, who is usually pretty accurate about these sorts of things, have identified wedge style guitars pre-dating Manzer's claim. So although Linda might have independently arrived at the design, it seems she wasn't the first.

By Al Carruth:
"There is a patent for a wedge guitar design to a guy named Smith, issued in 1968, iirc. I've got a copy some place."

Original reference here.

Actual patent here, but it was in 1969 (close enough for jazz).

Trevor...that would make it a Smith Wedge then??