Gibson ES175 busted up pretty bad

[rocket]

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THe gent who owns this Gibson 175 isn't sure if it's worth spending mega$ to get it right or not. This has had plenty of issues in the past, headstock busted off and been stuck back on, been dropped heaps of times looks like , splits and cracks in the sides, had a busted heel, pretty sure there's some screws down through the f/b at the 14th, massive twist in the f/b mainly at the neck extension. what has bought the whole thing undone is, the strap button was screwed into the joint between the heel and body, this has helped an already poor joint come apart, the strap came away while being played at a gig and the whole issue hit the canvas removing the neck completely. It is insured so the owner is thinking if the quote to make good is too high the insurer will write it off. Practically though, how much is too much $s and time and effort to get this baby sing'n sweet again?
Cheers,,,

Rod.

[jeffhigh]

Depends on how much of the work is going to be covered by insurance I'd probably allow for the best part of a day to rebuild the dovetail pocket and refit the neck.
I'm a sucker for old p90 equiped gibsons, I'd love to work on it

is it an original 50's model or a reissue

[simso]

It actually doesnt look that bad, clearly its had a few questionable repairs such as the screws through the fretboard at the 12-13th fret, but all in all, its pretty clean,

The fretboard end twist is only becuase its been released from the body, apart from that, the neck is rather sweet, a bit of pore filling to hide the wood laminates in the headstock if he so desires.

Route /clean / shim the neck socket is really the only major (well compared to the rest) job

A little bit of crack repairs and he will have a beauty.

Steve

[Kim]

Yep its certainly a guitar worthy of the effort and it should not take too much as Steve suggests. A word of caution about insurance cover. If insuring a guitar works anything at all like car insurance, then your customer should be made aware that if the guitar is assessed and deemed uneconomical to repair, once your customer accepts the cheque for the sum its insured for then he no longer owns the guitar. The insurance company will likely take it and sell it at auction to recover their loss. Some policies don't work that way but many do. What you can sometimes do 'if' the insurer agrees, is to settle for a lesser payout in lieu of keeping the damaged property. Best bet is to find out the amount covered, get the owner to check the fine print, and see what you have to work with.

The other point re; insurance is that most will only cover to return damaged goods to a serviceable condition i.e. They will pay to get the guitar back to where it was prior to it hitting the floor but they won't look at paying out for a resto cause the guitar was already suffering the effects of fair wear and tear from age anyhow. Maybe the quote is best going in for only fixing the damage from the fall and then if he wants to fix the shrinkage cracks and other pre-existing, then the owner can dip his hand into his pocket for the balance...

Anyhow nice guitar and certainly worth spending some on...He could think of it as a xmas presi to himself.

Cheers

Kim

[rocket]

This is very curious, closer inspection of the neck joint shows that the only part of the heel actually contacting the body is the extreme outer edges , the heel has been undercut back toward the tenon and that the body was lacquered with the neck off because there is a full compliment of lacquer immediately to the bass side of the mortice, also the bottom of the mortice in the neck block has been lacquered, there is no evidence of any glue ever having been applied to these surfaces, and if it had the lacquer would have made it useless, also the the dovetail tenon measures 14mm long and the mortice measures 17mm deep, 3mm gap between the two surfaces, they were never going to contribute to well fitting snug joint, i also observed that the neck extension only goes back as far as the heel face, it is actually cut around the dovetail, this doesn't contribute any strength to the joint either, it is depending on the f/b for it's strength.
I'm surprised that this guitar has lasted 50 odd years with such a poorly constructed neck joint, and i'm surprised it has the logo it has on it's headstock.
Cheers,,

Rod.

[Ormsby Guitars]

This is very curious, closer inspection of the neck joint shows that the only part of the heel actually contacting the body is the extreme outer edges , the heel has been undercut back toward the tenon and that the body was lacquered with the neck off because there is a full compliment of lacquer immediately to the bass side of the mortice, also the bottom of the mortice in the neck block has been lacquered, there is no evidence of any glue ever having been applied to these surfaces, and if it had the lacquer would have made it useless, also the the dovetail tenon measures 14mm long and the mortice measures 17mm deep, 3mm gap between the two surfaces, they were never going to contribute to well fitting snug joint, i also observed that the neck extension only goes back as far as the heel face, it is actually cut around the dovetail, this doesn't contribute any strength to the joint either, it is depending on the f/b for it's strength.
I'm surprised that this guitar has lasted 50 odd years with such a poorly constructed neck joint, and i'm surprised it has the logo it has on it's headstock.
Cheers,,

Rod.

Sounds like they did a better joint than normal then. Gibsons, to be quite blunt, are absolute pieces of shit.

I was asked to be the 'warranty guy' here in Perth. I accepted. 47 repairs valued at $2800 came through in 6 weeks, before I told them I wouldn't do it any more.

[rocket]

Going by this example i might have to agree with you! But curiouser and curiouser it gets, lacquer in the neck joint suggests to me neck off and no masking tape when lacquer is applied,but as seen in the pics, there's no lacquer on top of the body where the neck extension passes over, so that suggests neck on for lacquer finish.
Rod.

[Matt Bach]

What's the go with the plugs on the fretboard?

[rocket]

At a guess the heel has been split before and someone has put dowels or screws down through the fretboard and covered them with rather well fitting plugs!
Rod.

[Patrick Hanna]

Rod, I might be misunderstanding your description of the dovetail joint, but it looks to me as though it was well-fitted before being dropped and broken. Of course, none of us can tell for sure without actually seeing it. It is normal for the shoulders of the heel to be undercut so that only their edges bear against the body. Likewise, it is normal for no glue to be applied there. The dovetail tenon and its mating mortise walls are the only surfaces that should receive glue. The depth of the mortise is also normal--the gap there is to receive glue squeeze out inside the joint. In most cases, it's also a good place to inject steam via a needle if a solid neck joint must ever be opened.

In any event, I am firmly in the camp of those who believe this guitar can and should be fixed. Furthermore, even if the original dovetail was not a good fit, this is now the opportunity to make it a good fit. It might require adding some veneer layers to one or both side of the tenon and then sanding to a chalk fit. A bit tedious, perhaps, but not that big a deal. The side cracks and the possibility of failed braces, broken glue joint in the neck block, etc. worry me a lot more.

I once rebuilt a smashed up plywood archtop in much worse shape than this Gibson--and it wasn't nearly as valuable an instrument.

[rocket]

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Here's some pics of the repaired instrument, i rebuilt and fitted the dovetail and realigned the neck, gave the f/b a bit of a dress, and filled some of the cracks in the cutaway, i couldn't disappear them though.
Rod.

[Kim]

Excellent work Rod I'm sure the owner is happy with that considering how it had been presented to you.

Cheers

Kim

[rocket]

Thanks Kim, he is very happy actually and he should be too , as i didn't want to string it up and find that it didn't play i gave it a bit of a fret dress, [ it did need one ], pulled the guts out of it and found one of the caps u/s, replaced it, adjusted the pups so the strings were within 1/8", could have fitted my thumb in that gap!!! it plays better now than before he snapped the neck off .
Cheers,,

Rod.

[Nick]

Thanks Kim, he is very happy actually and he should be too , as i didn't want to string it up and find that it didn't play i gave it a bit of a fret dress, [ it did need one ], pulled the guts out of it and found one of the caps u/s, replaced it, adjusted the pups so the strings were within 1/8", could have fitted my thumb in that gap!!! it plays better now than before he snapped the neck off .
Cheers,,

Rod.

Well done Rod and it's the sign of a good repairman that goes the extra little bit and hands back an instrument that is better than pre problem, it can only enhance your reputation for both repair and building, word of mouth is good free advertising.

[Patrick Hanna]

Nice save! As I stated previously, I always thought this great old axe was worth the effort to fix. I am in the camp of those who believe that Gibsons, like any other make, should be evaluated on their individual merits. This is a vintage axe and a CLASSIC jazz axe, and I am very glad you brought it back into service for your customer.
Patrick