Tone V Looks - Figured Tonewoods

[edrobins]

Hi. Not a luthier, but planning to have a custom OM built for me (for finger-picking), and have quite a few questions as I plan the instrument. Would greatly appreciate comments from people whose beautiful guitars I have seen in the Gallery.
To start, I have read the studies showing that clear, even, stiff soundboard timbers give high sound velocity and better tone than dense, uneven boards. For backs and sides, however, we look for lovely fiddleback blackwood, etc. Are there any tests showing the effect of figuring on sound velocity and tone? Would we get better tone from plain, even grain similar to soundboards? And is the contribution of back and side timbers significant enough to make a difference? Thanks.

[Kim]

Hi Ed, welcome to the ANZLF.

It is kind of difficult to sum up the real input the body wood has on the tonal out put of an acoustic guitar. Obviously the top has, by far, the most influence on response and the instruments over all tonal spectrum, the basic 'stew' if you like. This leaves the back and sides to 'flavour' the out put, the herbs and spices in this analogy.

Here is something to consider. When you see very curly wood such as highly figured blackwood, it is the result of very wavy grain within the board. When this wavy grain is cut into a thin boards, those 'waves' get sliced through and reveal themselves as 'short grain' or runout which dips and weaves its way through the board from one surface to the other. The alternating direction of this short grain wood refracts light in an alternating manner going from reflective to absorptive as it weaves along the board. Under a finish, the alternating light refractions are highlighted even more on the surface to produce the breath taking 3D effect that we all love so much.

Now few people will argue that it does not look great, but the reality is that all of that short grain weakens the board considerably. This is not to say that any short fall in structural integrity cannot be over come with sound construction methods, but the point remains that a highly figured board cannot, by its own form, be as stiff and strong as a straight grained, well quartered board of the same species.

The bottom line is, if you really want to give up all atheistic considerations and start splitting hairs, then yes, there probably are some 'minor' tonal advantages to be had from insisting upon only straight grained , plain Jane wood. But my thoughts are that for a barely discernible difference in tone, you would spoil a big part of the joy in owning a hand built guitar, for they are a work of art and whilst they should 'sound' great, they should also look the part as well.

This is not to say that a well built, plain Jane guitar, cannot look fantastic, but I think you should leave your choices open rather than limit yourself by seeking to milk 'every' performance improvement you can at the cost of all else because you can quickly reach a point where your just blowing smoke up your own arse in that pursuit and then you start missing out on some of the good stuff.

Cheers

Kim

[Nick]

Hi. Not a luthier, but planning to have a custom OM built for me (for finger-picking), and have quite a few questions as I plan the instrument. Would greatly appreciate comments from people whose beautiful guitars I have seen in the Gallery.
To start, I have read the studies showing that clear, even, stiff soundboard timbers give high sound velocity and better tone than dense, uneven boards. For backs and sides, however, we look for lovely fiddleback blackwood, etc. Are there any tests showing the effect of figuring on sound velocity and tone? Would we get better tone from plain, even grain similar to soundboards? And is the contribution of back and side timbers significant enough to make a difference? Thanks.

Hi & firstly welcome to the forum Ed(?). Could I suggest that you don't get too wrapped up in the hype (i'll call it that for want of a better term) of "You must use 'master' grade spruce for the top" 30,000 grain lines to the inch & perfectly straight. Whilst this is desirable for some, others are building with 'lesser' grade tops & getting just as sweet a sound as the master (sometimes better!). Every piece of wood off of a tree sounds different than the one that was cut from the same part of the tree. I believe it's up to the builder to know the wood and 'extract' the best sound out of it via thickness & bracing size & shape.
Whilst your observations as far as sound goes is probably close, too stiff a soundboard would 'choke' up the bass response & would need to be thinned down to balance it.
Personally I prefer top wood with a bit of character in it's appearance and my last two tops were only considered 'AA' grade Adirondack (as opposed to 'AAA'), did it deract from the sound? I don't believe it did as I got to know the wood and braced accordingly. Even a poor grade of wood has an 'ideal' tone & it's the builders job to bring that tone out of the wood. I wouldn't say that Master grade is made for "formulaic" builders (ducks to avoid the thrown tomatoes) & I'm not trying to start a debate with builders that prefer these tops & not berating their choice to do so, but if our master grade tops contain pretty much the same qualities i.e. grain lines per inch & straightness (some sort of standard if you like) then we are reducing the chance of 'vagueries' within the wood & it makes bracing a simpler task as we know that if we make this top 'X' mm thick then we can make the braces pretty much the same size everytime...maybe a slight difference but I doubt it would be much, this cuts down the amount of work & choices the builder would have to make on the top.
As to the back & sides, to me it's more to do with the species of wood used rather than the figure. Different B&S woods will give a different sound, the figuring would probably have more effect on the stability of the wood rather than the tone.
All of the above is just my view, there will be others that no doubt differ (and won't hesitate to tell me! ) but it will be up to you to decide & also pick a good builder who will be able to discuss his or her views on your questions. If you have a "pre-made" recipe already decided for a guitar then you can take it to any builder who will assemble the various choices for you into a guitar, but a great builder will advise & add to what you have in mind & build you a great guitar, Sure go to the builder with an idea of what you want but don't be frightened to use their knowledge & experience in shaping your final decision.

[J.F. Custom]

Hi Ed.

It is difficult to generalize, but in a nutshell - Yes, solid back and side material choice will colour the tone. Saying which and how outside of somewhat broad descriptions such as harsher, brighter, warmer etc. is nebulous though as there are too many potential variables. Internet searches will reveal individuals stating personal opinions on how some species affect tone. How they correlate to your opinion/perspective remains unknown. Pooled together, you may find a consensus you feel comfortable with influencing your decision. Technically also, I would agree that 1/4 sawn plain timber will likely have less dampening effect, as well as potentially be structurally more stable than a highly figured alternative. Considering the amount of 'ingredients' in a guitar however, technical scientific data does not always play out in the way you might think.

This is because the biggest single factor that will affect the outcome is the builder. Your guitar will primarily only be as good as the builder you choose. It is very possible to make a poor guitar from 'Master' grade materials, just as it is possible to make a great guitar from lesser materials. There are plenty of exceptional guitars out there made from highly figured material for example. Would plain timber on one of these guitars have made it sound better? Maybe, maybe not - it would be difficult to prove. If data suggests it would, would you hear the difference anyway? Who is to say, when the next guitar in the same materials by the same builder may sound different anyway. Then of course, what you like and what the next player likes is very personal and subjective.

Finally there is design or type of build and its influence of tone generation or material selection. Take Greg Smallman for example with classical guitars made with laminated back and sides and ultra thin tops. Very unconventional yet successful. Some timbers really ring when tapped (liveness or Q factor), others tap like cardboard yet both can be coaxed into good instruments. I would echo the earlier comments or warnings if you will, not to get too caught up in the technical details such as the tightest most even grain. It will much more likely come down to the individuals ability to work with the materials chosen and their particular build style, or that you have selected.

So if you are going the custom guitar route, you may as well make it worthwhile and select decent quality materials, if not the rarest and most expensive "technically perfect", with the back and sides to suit your taste, for the guitar you wish to hold and play for a long time to come. Hopefully, your material selection and the builder you are most comfortable with will make for a good brew.

Hope it helps and good luck with your custom build.

Cheers,

Jeremy.

[Allen]

Another welcome tot he forum Ed.

What the others said is pretty well on the money with my views. Personally I detest the term "Master Grade". Just means that it looks artificial to me. Has no character at all, and costs far too much for what it is. The difference between AA and AAA is almost entirely in the cosmetics, and is pretty arbitrary. I've got at least 100 tops in stock and they were sold all the way from A to AAA and each one of them has it's own merits. The sound from the A grade tops is just as good as the AAA but they've got what the market calls "unacceptable color" so are downgraded.

In my experience the back and sides play such a small amount in the tone that an instrument produces as to be inconsequential. At least when we are talking a flat top guitar. It's the top and how it's braced that make the biggest difference. The sides and back will have an influence on how they are built and braced, but the species of wood really just doesn't come into the equation in my experience. There is an article in a recent Guild of American Luthier publication by John Calkin who says the same thing, and he's been around a very long time and build far more instruments than all of us combined.

So my advice is to pick back and sides that are something that you like. Don't worry about if it's going to last 300 years 'cause were all going to be feeding worms long before then. A nice top in a species that you appreciate the sound of. Appropriate trim and finish and you're good to go.

You can chase your tail about all of this stuff till you fall over. Same goes for luthiers (or wannabe's) trying to make the ultimate guitar. Just pick something and build with it.

[Bob Connor]

G'day Ed and welcome to the forum.

The other blokes have said it all I think.

I would suggest that if you are after an instrument for fingerstyle that you consider a European Spruce or a Lutz Spruce top. Cedar or Redwood would also work well.

In my experience they are are more suited to to fingerstyle than Sitka or Red Spruce.

However I will qualify this by saying that all of the aforementioned woods would be fine in the hands of an experienced luthier. The first two mentioned are just my personal preference.

Regards

[edrobins]

My thanks for all the great input on this question. If I could just throw in a couple more questions, I think I'll be on the right track.
1. Re recommended soundboard timbers for finger-style, will Bunya or other Australian timber stand up to the best European or Lutz spruce, or should I stay "traditional"?
2. Will adding a pickup affect the sound negatively when used acoustically?
3. I have a piece of fiddleback Blackwood with sentimental value. It was milled by my late grandfather in the Otways 100 years ago, and was made into a tray. It's a broken piece, measuring roughly 250mm X 500 mm x 10mm thick. I'd love to incorporate bits of it into the guitar (cosmetic only), and am wondering where it could be used. So far I've thought of rosette, headstock, a piece under the endpin, and maybe the bridge. Is blackwood strong enough for a bridge? Is there any other appropriate place to use this timber?

Again, many thanks for the ideas already. Ed.

[Bob Connor]

If you want local woods I think you will get a sweeter sound from King Billy Pine than Bunya. Bunya has a more fundamental sound with less overtones than King Billy.

If you are in Victoria I have a King Billy O model here that you can have a listen to. I'm in Geelong.

Regards

[liam_fnq]

Bunya has a more fundamental sound with less overtones than Bunya.

Bunyas aint Bunyas hey Bob?

[Bob Connor]

Whoops. I meant King Billy. I've edited it above

[DarwinStrings]

Hmmm if it is a nice hard piece of Blackwood you could even use it for a fret board and bridge combo if you really want to show it off, and I guess one thing about guitar making is that there is rules but breaking the rules is fair enough at times depending on circumstance and how you break them. As for adding a pickup is depends on what sort of pickup and what you mean by"negatively" plenty of guitars have pickups and still sound great acoustically.

Jim

It is not what you use it is they way that you use it.