Epoxy for laminating

Cleaver · Post by **Cleaver** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 2:36 am

Bled through isn't a problem. I use thin card board as a caul. Most of the bleed through gets absorbed by the card board and makes a few localized areas of paper and glue that is on the wood but it is easily sanded off. Has absolutely no effect on the finish. When I say it sand off easily I mean really easily. I would use this thin card board whether I used epoxy or UF. Some guys use plastic or rubber as a caul but I find that the glue that comes through just spreads over a larger area. This is the cardboard that is called "News board". Comes in different thicknesses. It is the stuff you see on the back of a pad of paper.
Funny you should mention Karelian Birch burl. I did a series of cabinets using Karelian veneers fairly recently. Came out just fine.
I am not saying epoxy won't work, and I wouldn't be afraid of using it or of having a guitar with sides laminated from it. I am just saying that UF edges it out in about every way for this application. This is really state of the art as far as veneering and laminating for furniture. Darryl Keil,
President of Vacuum Pressing Systems, Inc.: has a forum devoted to these types of things. Go to their web site and there is a mountain of information.

Rick T. makes a good point about epoxy bleed through which might be a issue except if you are going to pore fill with epoxy later then you have sort of done that from the inside out ! If your not going to use epoxy as a pore filler that bleed out might be a problem but if you are then that could tip the balance to using the right kind of epoxy. A good working knowledge of epoxy would be helpful to say the least.
There are a few things to know where as UF is more like a lot of the glues folks are used to. A example of something about epoxy that is counter intuitive is that the more hardener you use the softer and more flexible the end product. A lot of people think it is a catalytic type product but it isn't. Polyester resins are. Think bondo. The more hardener the faster the stuff goes off. Anyway, good luck everyone with what ever method you choose.
Cleaver
AKA Link (real first name )

Hesh1956 · Post by **Hesh1956** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:48 am

Hi Cleaver/Link and welcome to the ANZLF M8!

I have a very good friend also in northern California who also goes by the first name of Link. I am wondering if you may know the guy?

Anyway my friend is my go-to-guy for all matters that I need trusted council on regarding proper woodworking, woodworking tools, and general woodworking knowledge. He has been a huge help to me for a couple of years now and he is also one of the most decent guys that I have ever known.

Anyway welcome aboard!

HiString · Post by **HiString** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:46 pm

The toxicity problem with epoxy is the "epoxide rings" which need to be "broken" to negate the toxicity/sensitization issue. It is essential, that when mixing the two components, that ALL "epoxide rings" have been exposed to the hardener which "breaks" the rings during the chemical process.

One accepted recommendation, is to increase the ratio of hardener by 10%.

One other thing to consider is that epoxies virtually never fully cure.

Kim · Post by **Kim** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:45 pm

HiString wrote:The toxicity problem with epoxy is the "epoxide rings" which need to be "broken" to negate the toxicity/sensitization issue. It is essential, that when mixing the two components, that ALL "epoxide rings" have been exposed to the hardener which "breaks" the rings during the chemical process.

One accepted recommendation, is to increase the ratio of hardener by 10%.

One other thing to consider is that epoxies virtually never fully cure.

I have not heard of "epoxide rings" but i have heard of the chemical "bisphenol A" which is found in most resins and many plastics and considered a cause of allergic sensitisation in the dental industry.

I would caution against advising people to add more 'hardener' to negate sensitivity issues. A read of the documents located at the attached links, and most everything else i have read, would seem to indicate that it is in fact the 'hardener' or more specifically the "Tetraethylenepentamine" in most hardeners that is one of the main triggers of sensitivity, but there are a bunch of nasties in hardeners and i suspect that this cocktail would be enough to cause problems if overly exposed even if never mixed with part A.

http://joh.med.uoeh-u.ac.jp/pdf/E44/E44_4_12.pdf

http://www.tilersonline.com.au/files/fi ... 20MSDS.pdf

Oh, here is something interesting about epoxy contact dermatitis that i have just discovered. It would appear that once affected, you can have a relapse many months later even if you have not been re-exposed.

Be careful, this is nasty stuff and does not fool around, once its in, its in.

Cheers

Kim

Rick Turner · Post by **Rick Turner** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:53 pm

This all makes the drugs we used to take look positively benign!

Mike Thomas · Post by **Mike Thomas** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:59 pm

It's ok to put a little alcohol in your epoxy, but don't put any epoxy in your alcohol!

Kim · Post by **Kim** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:02 pm

Good one Mike.

Rick Turner wrote:This all makes the drugs we used to take look positively benign!

Yeah and these ones don't leave out the flashbacks either Rick

Rick Turner · Post by **Rick Turner** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:43 pm

Kim, I gave up on flashbacks. Flashforwards are much more fun!

Kim · Post by **Kim** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:46 pm

Yeah but I rely on them to find my bloody car keys in the morning.

Hesh1956 · Post by **Hesh1956** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:59 pm

Man am I hungry - anyone got any potato chips (crisps) or cookies.....

I was going to say something else, but, er, darn I forgot what I was going to say....

Cleaver · Post by **Cleaver** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:01 am

I agree with Kim. Adding more hardener is not a good idea. You will likely get soft epoxy with uncured hardener in it and the hardener is the biggest offender for toxicity. Doesn't matter how much hardener you add or don't, you will still be exposed to the stuff when mixing and when it is curing. Also any sanding or machining of uncured material can be pernicious even if it is throughly mixed.
The thing to do is to mix throughly at the proper ratios as set forth by the manufacture. Only with a lot of experience with epoxy in general and with the particular epoxy you are using would I tweak the mixture. I would consult with the manufacture as well. There are techniques for proper mixing as well. Another reason why I like the UF in this case. Using epoxy properly takes some knowledge and techniques.
Kim, are you the one who had the horrible experience with epoxy. I remember coming across your story a while back.
Very scary, I took your story to heart and felt for you. I love epoxy, does some things as nothing else can. I want to be able to use it in the future. I limit my exposure as much as I can. If I can find something that works as well or better for a certain application I will. In fact in the Gougeon brothers West systems site they advocate finding the least toxic solution for a application. ( are you listening Hesh ? )
Cleaver

Localele · Post by **Localele** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:14 am

I thought that exact ratios were to be followed and the best way to do this is to mix by weight with some accurate digital scales and refering to the manufacturers recommendations. This is particularly true for small quantities where it is easy to vary the mix wildly.

Cleaver · Post by **Cleaver** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:14 pm

PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:14 am Post subject:
I thought that exact ratios were to be followed and the best way to do this is to mix by weight with some accurate digital scales and refering to the manufacturers recommendations. This is particularly true for small quantities where it is easy to vary the mix wildly.

You thought correctly. This is a good procedure.

Cleaver

Kim · Post by **Kim** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:50 pm

Cleaver wrote: Kim, are you the one who had the horrible experience with epoxy. I remember coming across your story a while back.
Very scary, I took your story to heart and felt for you.
Cleaver

Hey Link welcome to the ANZLF,

Yes mate that was indeed me and certainly not an episode i would recommend anyone put themselves through if they can at all avoid it, errmm the word 'harrowing' comes to mind. I note in the MSDS attached to the second link in my post above it describes one of the side effects as an intolerable itch. Whilst the word 'intolerable' may indeed be an accurate account in scientific terms, it somehow fails to translate the full gravity of the discomfort.

Sure on the worst affected areas of my lower legs and forearms it was quite literally difficult to resist tearing flesh from bone to get some relief, but there were some other interesting observations as well. For instance for some 4 or 5 months after the onset of the allergic reaction, it was a confronting experience when washing my hands which had otherwise been mostly unaffected upon the palms. I could wash in cold water without any problem. But as soon as the nerves in the palm of my hands became aware of any heat, they would flare into a state of hypersensitivity whereby the itch on the palms would become completely irresistible and magnetic insomuch that it became near impossible to then withdraw my hands from the water flow for fear i deprive myself of the almost orgasmic relief obtained in scratching them. It sounds quite funny now, but it was not a very happy place to be at the time.

It should be mentioned that a big issue for me and a large part of why my particular experience had been so severe was due to a misdiagnosis by medical staff which, because of extreme swelling and redness of my limbs, had seen me treated for a number of weeks for a bacterial infection that quite simply did not exist before i was eventually seen by a dermatologist at my own prompting who then prescribed proper medication. By then however, the skin damage caused by my own immune system was quite extensive and has proven to be long lasting.

I guess this is the reason i have remained quite vocal on this issue, if more people, and i include myself in the mix, had a better understanding and awareness of the toxicity issues associated with the use of epoxies, i may never have had to suffer as i did, and to some extent, still do.

Cheers

Kim

Hesh1956 · Post by **Hesh1956** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:41 am

Cleaver wrote:I agree with Kim. Adding more hardener is not a good idea. You will likely get soft epoxy with uncured hardener in it and the hardener is the biggest offender for toxicity. Doesn't matter how much hardener you add or don't, you will still be exposed to the stuff when mixing and when it is curing. Also any sanding or machining of uncured material can be pernicious even if it is throughly mixed.
The thing to do is to mix throughly at the proper ratios as set forth by the manufacture. Only with a lot of experience with epoxy in general and with the particular epoxy you are using would I tweak the mixture. I would consult with the manufacture as well. There are techniques for proper mixing as well. Another reason why I like the UF in this case. Using epoxy properly takes some knowledge and techniques.
Kim, are you the one who had the horrible experience with epoxy. I remember coming across your story a while back.
Very scary, I took your story to heart and felt for you. I love epoxy, does some things as nothing else can. I want to be able to use it in the future. I limit my exposure as much as I can. If I can find something that works as well or better for a certain application I will. In fact in the Gougeon brothers West systems site they advocate finding the least toxic solution for a application. ( are you listening Hesh ? )
Cleaver

I hear ya link bro and I am always all for using the least toxic, safest solution that I can find provided that it does the job.

Kim's terrible experience with epoxy was the first time that I had ever heard that epoxies are sensitizers and that message is certainly in long term memory here too now.

I don't do double sides at least yet and although I was pretty high on the idea at one time the turn off has been two fold: First when using epoxy for double sides you are using a great deal of epoxy, at least in the context of guitar building. In fact I can't think of another guitar building application that uses this much glue of any kind at one time.

The second reason why I don't anticipate doing double sides at least for now is that it's part of a system approach to building that has other components as well. Ervin does double sides but he also uses very thin tops and backs. His bracing is different as well and IMHO does a better job of spreading the top's load more consistently over the entire top.

Since I don't build or brace like Ervin (I wish....) I would not get the same benefits of double sides that he does.

Anyway for now the only place that I use epoxy is for fret boards and even though you and I have debated this prior Link wait until you do your 5th fret board and wake up the next day to find a banana in your shop....

Double action truss rods are nice but I don't want to have to use a truss rod to straighten a neck when it's in the neutral position and has no string tension...

There are lots of things that we may use in guitar building that will be problematic for some folks and may even develop a problem over time for others. Always minimizing exposure to these things is a great idea and I agree that using the least toxic solution that works is prudent.

HiString · Post by **HiString** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:09 am

Kim,

Mate, I'm sorry to hear of your problems/experiences with epoxy, it is nasty stuff, however, I'll just politely back away from the discussion and concern myself with my entry into luthery and my day job and leave people to believe what they will believe.

BTW........my day job just happens to be in composite/resin research, development and production

Rick Turner · Post by **Rick Turner** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:49 am

HiString, it is sometimes helpful to identify yourself more completely when you jump in on a discussion like this one where the level of expertise that you obviously have could be very important. Most of us have learned this stuff empirically...the hard way...and none of us have learned a harder way than Kim.

We need expertise here, but everyone proves it a different way. With some, it's photos of instruments, with others, it's a long history and reputation that is country or world wide. Some, like you, come in with a handle instead of a "real name", and that anonymous stance tends to negate at least some of what your real experience may be. There's nothing wrong with starting a post by saying, "I work in the composites and adhesives industry, and here's the real low down on toxicity..." We'd all gladly accept that. It's not ego talking to state your level of qualification to speak on a subject here, it's a way of being taken very seriously very quickly.

We need your knowledge. Thanks for posting.

Kim · Post by **Kim** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:22 am

HiString wrote:Kim,

Mate, I'm sorry to hear of your problems/experiences with epoxy, it is nasty stuff, however, I'll just politely back away from the discussion and concern myself with my entry into luthery and my day job and leave people to believe what they will believe.

BTW........my day job just happens to be in composite/resin research, development and production

No need to back away Chriso, but if you have a point to make in this discussion then regardless of what your qualifications may or may not be surely you must see that you would need to take the time to offer an explanation of your statement (re "epoxide rings") if it is to be understood and put to good use. After all, to the best of my knowledge there is no one else here who is an industrial chemist.

I am certainly not saying that you are wrong, what i am saying is that i have never heard of the term 'epoxide rings'. I can find endless research papers, MSDS sheets and piles of other data clearly pointing a red, itchy, sensitised finger directly at bisphenol A and bisphenol F which i would imagine you would be aware are found in most resins, and also at many of the other compounds found in epoxy hardeners. But i don't seem to be able to find much clear cut 'lay' info explaining the role of "epoxide rings" in the causation of contact dermatitis.

The industrial dermatology specialist who treated me, Associate Professor Kurt Gebauer of the University of WA, was pretty clear when he said to me "the hardeners are the worst, really bad stuff, the stronger they smell, the more likely they are to cause a sensitisation issue" Maybe he thought discussing "epoxide rings" was above my comprehension but it did not seem that way. He may be one of the most respected specialist in his field but he is still a very approachable fellow and had no problem explaining to me how epoxy fumes can easily permeate through human skin tissue. If you have something to add here, or a point in clarification, don't back away Chriso, take the time to set us straight because this really is a very important issue in lutherie today and that is why we are here, to understand.

Cheers

EDIT: Sorry Rick, i typed out a response, had a power out and lost the lot, re-typed and posted and there was your post. Still, i am sure Chriso gets our point.

Kim

Rick Turner · Post by **Rick Turner** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:44 am

Kim, we're both encouraging those with the highest levels of expertise to come here and share...that goes to the heart of the whole thing about and with Ervin, too.

You can Google "epoxide rings" and find a ton...a ton of stuff that organic chemists would revel in that I do not pretend to understand, but it's all there.

BTW, the WEST stuff isn't very stinky...and good old crappy hardware store 5 Minute epoxy is. Go figure...

HiString · Post by **HiString** » Thu Oct 15, 2009 6:53 am

Guys, I've started to reply a few times and each time I find that my response seems inadequate on a few fronts........sorry, will try again later.

ChrisO

schrammguitars · Post by **schrammguitars** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:29 am

I just joined this list, so hello everyone!

Mike, I also have a copy of the DVD. Great stuff. I've built about 50 lattice guitars in the style of Greg Smallman. Several years ago I purchase a 2001 GS to examine. I'm also a player so I enjoy playing the Smallman as well. Here is a link to a recording I made on my 2001 GS a few years ago http://schrammguitars.com/SMALLMAN.mp3

If you email me I will send you Greg's email address. Don't count on any replies. Over the past few years I have emailed him and never received a reply...until recently. His wife emailed me and said the Greg found out I had the Playmakers DVD of his lecture and wanted to know where I got it. That info was on my old computer whose hard drive failed so I lost that info. Anyhow, he will only contact you if there is something for him. I've asked him several times about who made the wooden case for my 2001 GS. No reply.

Here is a history of how my lattice guitars developed http://schrammguitars.com/lattice.html
Some of the photos are of old techniques that I no longer use. Here is a guitar that I'm going to string up as soon as the tuning machines arrive:
http://schrammguitars.com/sherman.html

Here are a few other of my newer lattice guitars:
http://schrammguitars.com/liu.html
http://schrammguitars.com/siburg.html
http://schrammguitars.com/shek.html

Here is a link to the inside of my 2001 Smallman on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENImGsolpIw

What I was hoping to find on the Playmakers DVD was how Greg makes his carbon fiber and milled carbon fiber fingerboards. I've heard that he has some type of mold that he pores the cf and epoxy mixture into and heats it up and puts it in a vacuum press of some sort. Does anyone here have any info about that? Photos? DVD's?

Nick · Post by **Nick** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:48 am

Welcome to the Forum Dave, hope you enjoy our little corner of the planet "down under".
Thanks for the links especially the vid inside a Smallman, good job they sound like they do, the interior certainly wouldn't win any beauty contests! Looks like he's laid playdoh on the inner frame bracing! But there you go, maybe most of us are just too anal

Just wish I had the name and allure of his guitars.

John Maddison · Post by **John Maddison** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:29 pm

schrammguitars wrote:... His wife emailed me and said the Greg found out I had the Playmakers DVD of his lecture and wanted to know where I got it ...

GREG SMALLMAN IS NOT A HAPPY MAN AND IS VERY PISSED OFF WITH ME ... he has somehow been alerted to the fact that there is a video in circulation of his presentation at Playmakers. I emailed him after heâ€™d enquired to Playmakers '09 organiser, Rod Vervest, about the origin of the DVD. I stated that yes, it DID exist and that I had made copies and circulated it to five forum members. Neither I as Playmakers MC, nor a work colleague Steve (who video'd the event and gave me a copy on disk), were ever made aware at the time that Greg did not want his presentation recorded. Because of my action in distributing copies of the DVD to ANZLF members it is now in the public domain and, as you may understand, Iâ€™m feeling like an absolute jerk for having undermined his potential earnings should he ever go ahead and publish his methodologies in the future (I think this being the main reason he doesnâ€™t want his talks filmed).

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Please note - all of the email correspondence between Greg and myself that was posted here on the morning of 6 November has been deleted at Mr. Smallman's request - JM
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

All in all a bit messy ... To respect Greg's wishes I have since edited out the transcript of Greg's speil re: using epoxy that I posted on page 1 of this thread. As you can gather it's been an absolutely crappy week for me folks, so I'm just wanting to advise and plead with you all â€“ if a copy of the disk has come your way please discontinue the circulation of the Smallman @ Playmakers 2009 movie. Thanks!

Mike Thomas · Post by **Mike Thomas** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:48 pm

John, I know that you were acting honorably in what you did, and it is a shame that it has had these unfortunate consequences. I can understand that Greg Smallman has some justification for his reaction, but I would suspect that anyone interested in his guitars, would, as a consequence of having seen the DVD, be more likely to buy whatever Greg may publish in the future.
David, thanks for your post. I've had a quick look at the links you posted, and your work looks most impressive. I shall have a longer look tonight.
In the circumstances, I don't think I shall need Greg Smallman's email address.

But thanks anyway.

schrammguitars · Post by **schrammguitars** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:59 pm

After seeing the dvd I would buy anything that Greg published. I hope Greg realizes that nobody meant any disrespect. In fact I hope he would be flattered that so many luthiers admire his work. Sure he has his critics, but in my opinion he is like a modern day Torres. I hope he does decide to publish a book or dvd on his guitar making. I'd be the first in line!

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Epoxy for laminating

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