Finishing Questions

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pj2
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Finishing Questions

Post by pj2 » Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:56 pm

I about to start assembly my guitar so I have started to think about what I should finish it with. ( Stika Spruce top, Indian Rosewood B & S).

I don't have access to a spray booth, so will just be doing this in a garage, I also do not have a spray gun or compressor.

I am after a Gloss / High Gloss finish and was wondering what I should use ?, what other people in my situation use ? and if I can get anything in a can ?

Thanks for your help.

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Lillian
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Post by Lillian » Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:00 pm

PJ2, how's your elbow? Any injuries?

pj2
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Post by pj2 » Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:36 pm

??

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Lillian
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Post by Lillian » Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:39 pm

French Polish. It will give you what you're looking for without the extra equipment or toxic smell. But it does take a lot of elbow grease.

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John Steele
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Post by John Steele » Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:58 pm

LOL. Alcohol & elbow grease with a touch of olive oil. Pretty much as non-toxic a finish as you can find. Little slower than nitro, but it really brings out the warmth and color of the wood. Cost you around $20 to get it going. The key is to prep the instrument well prior to finishing. Put on some good tunes and away you go. I am hooked on FP.
J
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Allen
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Post by Allen » Sat Sep 26, 2009 6:02 pm

There are some aerosols on the market but the only ones that I've seen are pretty crap in the way of a finish that I'd be willing to put on an instrument. Lillian's recommendation for a finish with you're limited resources is about the best choice that I can think of.

Little bit of a learning curve, but as they said, pretty inexpensive, non toxic, and you actually pay a pretty steep premium for a french polished instrument.
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J.F. Custom
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Post by J.F. Custom » Sat Sep 26, 2009 6:54 pm

:D Lillian

PJ2,

Mirotone do have their Pre-Cat lacquer available in an aerosol touch up can which is a high quality lacquer, but only available in satin or semi gloss in this form from memory. Also, an aerosol can won't give the same results that spraying with a gun/compressor will, and takes work but the results can be ok. It would take many cans for one instrument though so wouldn't be the cheapest option and should you choose this route, it may prove advantageous to your health to do the spraying outdoors. The fumes are highly toxic - without access to any booth, an enclosed space would quickly overwhelm you.

I can't think of any other non-toxic and cheap finishes that will achieve the gloss you want other than the FP already mentioned too.

Good luck whatever you choose.

Jeremy.

Hesh1956
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Post by Hesh1956 » Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:28 pm

Hi Pj2 - what our friend Lillian is referring to is called French polish. French polish is a very old process of padding on shellac and building the coats over time, again padding it on, until you have an acceptable result.

Since the materials used can be pretty safe to use, not always but they can be..., the process is pretty safe and no spraying equipment is required.

The up side of a FP finish is that you don't have to be exposed to anything toxic and the results if done properly can be absolutely beautiful. FP can have a look to it that some of us find to have a warmth that modern finishes can't touch. In addition a FP finish is typically thinner than alternatives and in instrument making when considering acoustic instruments a thin finish is desirable for sonic reasons.

The down side is that FP does not offer the levels of protection that other modern finishes can offer. It's also a LOT of work but pleasant work that can be kind of therapeutic if you enjoy the process. Most types of finishes require near perfect prep work and pore filling and this is probably more true about FP than other finishes since it is so very thin. Also a FP polish finish is not very resistant to sweat, alcohol, and other things that can get on a guitar.

Another down side is that you can go blind from all of the elbow grease required but I have been blind since I was 14 years old so that was not a problem for me... :D

Anyway lots of first time builders go the FP route because it's not difficult, inexpensive, and the results can be stunning if properly done. And again if you use something such as pure grain alcohol as opposed to denatured alcohol you won't be exposed to anything potentially harmful.

There are a number of ways to learn FP. I learned it from Robbie O'Brien who offers both a finishing DVD that is excellent and on-line classes broadcast out of Red Rock Community College in Colorado. The on-line class was great fun and you will see my results below if interested.

Here are some of Robbie's students:

Image

And here is how my class work piece turned out:

Image

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J.F. Custom
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Post by J.F. Custom » Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:48 pm

Nice work Hesh ! :D

The French Polish looks absolutely beautiful (Indian Rosewood?) and the 'classroom' is cool!

Better for you still, with a 'classroom' like that, you don't even have to endure working in anyone else's less than sanitary work environments :lol:
Which is just as well - working in "hazmat" suits can make french polishing more difficult than need be...

Careful though - I think that's some dust on your screenshot :shock:
Oh no, hang on, it's on my screen... I'll tend to that. :wink:

Cheers,

Jeremy.

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Post by Hesh1956 » Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:26 pm

Jeremy bro it was very cool to not have to leave my own shop to take Robbie's class. I could also turn off my camera and pick my nose (with a sanitized finger mind you...) if I wanted.... :D

No dust on my computer screen but I am very glad that I learned to use the delete key - scrapping the White-Out off my screen was getting kind of old... :lol: :roll: :D

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Hippety Hop
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Post by Hippety Hop » Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:46 pm

There's also the KTM-9 water-based brushing lacquer from LMI.

I haven't tried it yet, but apparently its safer than solvent based lacquers, and can be shipped to Australia.

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Lillian
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Post by Lillian » Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:04 am

There is another option, maybe. Tru-oil is a finished used primarily on gun stocks. You wipe it on in thin coats to build up to the finish you want. I remember someone building up somewhere above 30 coats and then taking micromesh to it once it was dry. It was glossy. It wasn't high gloss, but it was impressive, considering what it is and how easy it is to use it.

LMI has a worksheet on it. http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/TruOil.htm

The maybe was because I'm not sure if it can be found there or if it can be shipped. If you can't find it there and it can be shipped, we can get some to you.

http://www.birchwoodcasey.com/sport/msd ... 150-TO.pdf

Nicely done Hesh. What did you use as a filler?

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Post by Hesh1956 » Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:36 am

Oh Ron :D

Lillian Ron has had great success getting some of the nicest true oil finishes that I have seen. Perhaps he will weigh-in here and enlighten us.

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sebastiaan56
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Post by sebastiaan56 » Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:44 am

Im not Ron but having used both TruOil and Shellac (French Polished) I can offer the following;

TruOil is simpler to use then FP. All you do is prep your surface and then wipe on a thin coat every couple of hours, when you have a good deep gloss going you stop and let it rest for a week. Another strong advantage of TruOil is that it is more grime and sweat resistant then Shellac. The better you prep your surface the better your finish. I pay about $50 per bottle from gunsmiths.

French polishing shellac is just a lovely process. You need to learn how to spirit off properly and you will get the finish that Hesh shows. Shellac has been used for hundreds of years, it works. It is more fun than TruOil and if you are really stuck you can buy it at Bunnies for a couple of dollars. The blonde varieties are preferred as they dont add colour but my favourite is "Garnet" which adds a deep red lustre.

Another product to consider is UBeauts Hard Shellac which I apply using the FP technique. Its had a bad rap in the past for crazing but that has been resolved. Ive been using it with Linseed Oil as a lubricant and it seems to be working just fine. The advantage is that it contains a cross linking polymer that makes it very tough when it is cured. Resolves the issues of plain old shellac. I paid $30.80 at CarbaTec.

Hope that helps.
make mine fifths........

pj2
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Post by pj2 » Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:31 pm

Thanks for your help, lots of good information. I am just wondering has anyone used the French Polishing kit from Australian Luthier supplies
http://luthierssupplies.com.au/product_ ... cts_id=384

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sebastiaan56
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Post by sebastiaan56 » Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:49 pm

I havent/ but when I look at it I go "why?". If you need flakes for a guitar PM me. The pads are easy to make, linseed oil costs $8 for a litre. The kit doesnt have alcohol/metho so you will probably need to source that (I expect it would not be allowed in the post). To make such a kit would top out at $15 including the postage.

Th Milburn tutorial is here http://www.milburnguitars.com/fpbannerframes.html , also youtube French Polish and you will get heaps of tutorials on all aspects of french polish. I wouldnt be lashing the big bucks on it, save that for tonewood.....
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Allen
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Post by Allen » Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:37 pm

If you are looking to source different types of shellac, then you can try "Goods and Chattles" Have a great selection and their service is second to none. You'll find it in the restoration section of the web site.
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John Steele
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Post by John Steele » Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:40 pm

PJ2;
Here is the link I used to get started:

http://www.milburnguitars.com/fpbannerframes.html

Explains the process pretty clearly.
J
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Post by Gaby » Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:54 pm

You are all talking about looks of the finishes, but what about tone?

Some players swear by French Polish, and as said above, people pay a premium for it.

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Post by Hesh1956 » Sun Oct 04, 2009 12:21 am

Gaby tone and finishes are something that although many of us have opinions it's pretty impossible to quantify these beliefs.

Nonetheless... :D I agree that a FP finish does seem to be less restrictive than some of the alternatives. My own opinion is because it is thinner and weighs less.

I am a weight freak who goes around weighing everything that I build with. This also means that I weigh my guitars prior to finish and after and I take these measurements in the exact same humidity environment too.

The last guitar that I FPed I added 1.5 ounces to the over all weight of the guitar. The finish is very thin in the neighborhood of .001 - .002".

For nitro jobs that I have done I can see an addition of 4-5 ounces and a film thickness of .005 or more. I am not a very good finisher either.

Guitars that I have had professionally finished for Cat urethane I have seen 5 ounces added and a film thickness of .005 and for guitars that were finished with Cat Poly I measured an addition of 3 ounces and a film thickness of as thin as .003".

Granted some variables here are the guitar size although they were all similar in size and the film thickness samplings were from areas such as where the fret board extension will live. It's very possible that film thickness vary widely in other locations.

But if there is anything to learn from these data to me it is that thin finishes may be sonically superior because a) they are thinner and b) they add less weight to the guitar top and therefore less dampening.

None of this makes one finish better than the other mind you because there is always going the be the issue of which finish protects better too. Trade offs.... And even though I like FP finishes sonic qualities I may just be insane... :D

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