Staining/ Dying for Sunburst with Artists Materials

[jjh]

I've had no luck posting elsewhere, so I thought I broadcast to a larger audience and post here as well, I've recently bought Dan Erlewines' Guitar Finishing book and was amazed how good it was with the vast array of recipes and techniques. I'd like to do a Tobacco Sunburst and my only gripe with the book is that it was mainly directing you to StewMac colours, and shipping to the UK is prohibitive. In my local hardware shop I can buy alcohol and water based stains, and I'm assuming that I can use artists watercolour paints to dilute and alter water based products, and oil paints to alter the alcohol ones, my other assumption is that acrylic paints are pigment based and shouldn't be used as you would start to hide the grain.

I can also get coloured inks and aren't sure what the base is of if they would be useful. The other thing I'd like but can't source over here is EM6000 lacquer, nitro is tricky to get but I would rather not spray it. I can get a brand called chestnut here is they're description of their product

Chestnut Acrylic Lacquer A hardwearing water based lacquer, a good alternative to solvent based products. It dries to a very high gloss, whilst drying the resin components cross-link to form a coating which is actually tougher than Melamine Lacquer. Apply with brush or roller, allowing two hours between coats. We recommend the use of acrylic sanding sealer first to give a smooth base on which to build the lacquer

Their other product is

Chestnut Melamine Lacquer This finish will give protection against both heat and water. It can be used alone or, for better results, over a cellulose based sanding sealer. Several thin coats provide a superior finish. Quick drying due to cellulose base. The melamine dries to a gloss finish and can then be matted using 0000 Steel Wool, or brought to a gloss by applying wax with a pad of 0000 Steel Wool and buffing to a shine.

Now these are sold by the litre (2 pints) how much would I need for a guitar and which would be more fit for purpose? I've also heard both good and bad about a product

Rustin's Plastic Coating Universally accepted as one of the toughest finishes available. Something akin to liquid formica, it is a 2 part cold cure finish which dries chemically after the addition of a hardener. It has a high solids content thus giving a high build per coat. It can be used on a variety of surfaces but not on metal or over paint. It can be brushed, applied with a roller or sprayed. There is no tougher finish for kitchen worktops, bar tops, tables or anywhere subjected to heat, solvents, water spillage etc. Plastic coating dries clear and glossy and can be left as such or given a satin finish by rubbing down with 0000 steel wool and wax, matt by using zero steel wool or brought to a high gloss mirror finish using burnishing cream, when it resembles a French polished surface but with none of the disadvantages in upkeep. For wooden or cork floors a special type F plastic coating is available to beautify and protect your floor. See Floor Finishes section for Floor Plastic Coating. (Coverage 1litre to 15m². Reaches maximum heat and solvent resistance after 5-7 days).
and aren't sure about it.

Any advice welcome

Cheers guys

[Nick]

Hi JJ. For a tobbacco burst I would go with either a transparent tint added to clear in whatever finish you choose, Ive done them using acrylic lacquer's, Nitro and have recently started using two pot urethane, or if you prefer (and can make a really nice burst) water based rubbed directly onto the timber. I used to use the stewmac colourtone liquids but now they don't ship that overseas so I go with Aniline powders. LMI have some here but there are others around (maybe some in the UK even) that do the powdered stains. The beauty of them are that you are able to vary the depth of colour by how strong you mix the stains or by the amount you 'build up 'when spraying onto the guitar.
You are right about the acrylic paints (or any other paints for that matter), they are opaque and will just turn clear paint into a non-see thru colour of whatever the colour is. Becareful also of hardware store 'stains' come topcoat, they sometimes just mix a colour (walnut, oak e.t.c) into a polyurethane base and it comes out streaky and opaque, it merely colours the base wood a colour resembling the equivalent wood the label says. I would stick with musical instrument or furniture makers stains personally.
I've done quite a few bursts over the years but without scanning the photo's in I'll just post one I already have on me 'puter to give you an idea of the type of bursting possible with the powders.


The acrylic lacquers I have used I used on mostly solidbody electrics and have gotten from automotive spray stores, they do take a long time to harden up before you can buff out (typically 4-5weeks) and you do get shrinkage for some time after but the beauty of this type of paint is that if you need to, the store can match any solid colours, you can invent your own or spray metallics, the options are limitless.

[Lillian]

Nice Nick, and I don't like bursts.

[Nick]

Nice Nick, and I don't like bursts.

Thanks Lillian, I'm not into the three tone bursts & only do them if the customer asks, there's something about a line of red that screams GARRISH to me.But I like a nice tobbacco burst. Did a refinish on a Hofner "Beatle" bass some years ago that I was really in love with how it looked but never took any pictures! Damn fool.

[Lillian]

Yours doesn't have that hard line that is so common to bursts. It looks more like it was worn off from use. Not quite, but very close.

I still don't want it on one of my guitars, but still, it was nicely handled.

[Allen]

I've got a selection of StewMac's Analine dyes. A little goes a very long way. You should be able to find comparable type of product locally though for your needs.

Graham MacDonald responded to a question similar to yours perhaps 6 months ago. He gave some good advice about doing bursts by rubbing on stains. If he doesn't weigh in on this, try a PM to him.

Not having any experience with the topcoats you are describing, it's impossible to pick one over the other. Advertising blurb isn't much help when your wanting to evaluate a product for such a specialized application. An acrylic lacquer is going to be your most likely candidate for a suitable finish in this type of product, but formulations are so different, it could take some experimentation to find the right one.

For what it's worth, I use Mirotone clear gloss pre-catalyzed lacquer. One liter will easily finish 2 full sized 000 guitars. But I've had more than a little spraying experience. So for an inexperienced applicator, 1 instruments should be a walk in the park.

[jjh]

I've googled analine dyes and I can get them from Behlens in the UK also I noticed that the stew mac ones are metal-complex dyes now there are a couple of dye companies who sell these to fabric companies to dye clothes, but say they also sell to printer in companies... are these the ones as I thought the analine ones were the ones to fade.

[Nick]

If Behlens is available to you then go with them, they've been supplying the furniture and instrument industry for years so must know their stuff

[J.F. Custom]

Hi JJ,

Behlens powdered aniline stains are great so I second Nicks comments and I'd go for those. I've had small containers for years and they are still going strong - partly because I rarely use them, but also because they dilute down so much. They are easy to use, have a good range of colours and mix easily too. They can also be used in water or alcohol bases.

Powdered aniline stains are very light fast but anything fades eventually. It also depends on the method of application - water based dying of the timber itself will provide possibly the most light fast method. This is due to the penetration of the dye and depth of colour achieved; it offers more protection from the damage of UV rays than when mixed in the finish itself which is relatively thin. However this is more a case of what appearance you want to achieve and your level of skill as tinting the finish or staining the timber itself results in quite a different look and corresponding difficulty of application.

As a side, water based staining of the timber also needs adequate surface prep for consistent results. You'll need to grain raise and sand several times and also be careful if staining end grain with this method as it will be much darker if you don't seal it first or use other methods of same. Some actually like the effect too.

Metal acid type dyes are also meant to be very light fast and this purportedly is what PRS guitars use on their finishes. I have no personal experience with them however so can't comment on usability or pros/cons.

Other than that, I'd second Allens comments - their are so many different finish emulsions on the market nowadays that it is impossible to comment. Every company seemingly has their own unique recipe and modification applied to even 'standard' finishes let alone all the new concoctions available. Best to make an educated guess first, then do some experimenting with what's available to you.

Cheers,

Jeremy.

[jjh]

I've found leather dyes in the cupboard 2 different makes and the Dylon one is alcohol based and can be looked through in a clear glass, so isn't pigment based I'm wondering if the little bricks the same company sells for dying clothes could be powered and used like a cheap analine dye

[liam_fnq]

JJ, i don't have anything to add, but would love to see what options are available, so feel free to keep us posted on what you come up with.

[Nick]

I've found leather dyes in the cupboard 2 different makes and the Dylon one is alcohol based and can be looked through in a clear glass, so isn't pigment based I'm wondering if the little bricks the same company sells for dying clothes could be powered and used like a cheap analine dye

Just reading through & into your posts I get the impression that cost is a major factor in determining your finish. If money is of concern to you then by all means try these other "pocket friendly" types of dye, but try them on scraps first! Not sure what clothes dye's are made of so don't know how they would transfer onto wood.
But to my way of thinking you have spent some time & love building an instrument (or preping an already finished one back to bare wood) it would seem a shame if the final step you used was done "on the cheap" as this is not only protecting your precious work but is what gives the instrument an appeal & incentive for people to look closer at your work. The anilines that Behlens e.t.c produce, when looked at, are actually really cost effective.... a little goes a longway with these concentrates. It only takes a very small amount to make a good amount of strong coloured dye that will do several instruments, they can be further 'watered' down should a weaker strength be needed.I have refinished guitars for years (about 25 from memory) with many of them being sunbursts or transparent colours and a single packet of dye has done many,many guitars so has been a small investment when looked at on a per instrument basis.

[jjh]

Cost is an issue, but more an issue is ease of purchase I have a excellent hobby shop sell all kinds of artist materials fabric dyes with in walking distance, and looking there acrylic art inks look to be a favourable product, behlens analine dyes are expensive, I'm guessing 2 oz of powder is £11 or they solar lux ones which I've only just discovered are £12 for a bottle and this is plus postage, I'd probably need 5 for a tobacco sunburst, which I'd do very few of but if I could buy 5 tubes of artists paint and mix them with thinners the hole lot would be under a £10.

[Nick]

I'm guessing 2 oz of powder is £11 or they solar lux ones which I've only just discovered are £12 for a bottle and this is plus postage, I'd probably need 5 for a tobacco sunburst.

I take it you are talking about the solar lux? The picture of the archtop I posted, I mixed 40 drops to my clear for the whole guitar which hardly made a dent in the bottle so I'm wondering why you think you will need 5 bottles? Not knocking you just puzzled by your methodology.
It takes very little to do a burst. The recipes that Dan Erlewine makes up as far as I can remember (I would have to look at my finishing book again, and an excellent book it is by the way!) makes a fair amount (about a quart?), enough for quite a few guitars.
By all means experiment with the artists supplies and I would be interested in hearing how you get on, just wondering about the opaque-ness of the acrylic artists paint. Maybe the dyes would be the better way to go?

[jjh]

Sorry I meant 5 different colours, yellow, red to tint it, red mahogany, tobacoo brown, black..... is more what I meant, been chatting to a friend though who gave me some wood, he used to make snooker tables for a living and offered a service to match his tables to their furniture so bought stains by the gallon and has loads left of I want to go round with some bottles, so I'll end up with proper stuff at a good price though it may not be as light fast as modern equivalents.

[Nick]

Sounds like a good deal JJ, don't see too many faded snooker tables either (apart from the blaize) so I'd say you would get some good results from this Good luck and I like a good Tobacco burst so post some pics once you've completed the job