At last I'm a luthier !!

Talk about musical instrument construction, setup and repair.

Moderators: kiwigeo, Jeremy D

Post Reply
User avatar
Dave White
Blackwood
Posts: 452
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:10 am
Location: Hughenden Valley, England
Contact:

At last I'm a luthier !!

Post by Dave White » Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:33 am

I have no compunction in calling myself a "luthier" as I make stringed instruments but knew that someday I'd have to step up to the mark and make a lute - well now I have. I'm happy and fortunate to have as a mentor, guitar building sounding board and friend Colin Symonds, a maker of great talent who is involved in his spare time in repairing old stringed instruments for the Royal College of Music. He repaired a Heiber 8 course lute and got permission from the owner to draw up a set of plans and make a copy of the instrument. He very generously made me a copy of the plans, provided me with a 90 year old European spruce top and made the fabulous boxwood pegs. On top of that Obi Wan Symonds mentored me through the project patiently answering all of my questions and providing detailed instructions for each of the many and varied processes involved. He also soundly put me back in my box when I mused about making the top arched. I owe him a huge debt of thanks.

This was scary stuff for me as I've never built from anyone else's plans and these plans are VERY detailed. Also it took me totally outside my comfort zone in terms of how a lute works compared to a guitar, but I learned a lot of interesting things and feel I now have a better understanding of where some modern techniques came from. Some of the techniques such as making the bowl and carving the Rose were . . . interesting.

The lute is called Eggbert as basically that’s what the bowl is – draw a line down the middle of the top (half-egg shape) and rotate this though 180 degrees, this gives me the surface of the bowl back. Eggbert is an eight course lute with 595mm scale length. The bowl is made of thirteen African walnut staves separated by bwb purfling together with an African walnut end cap, the neck and pegbox are also African walnut and the pegbox has an ebony end cap. The fretboard is plum, the nut is Old Rio Rosewood and the bridge is English walnut capped with plum. The neck has eight gut frets and four wooden (plum) ones glued onto the top. The bowl was pore filled with egg white and finished with Tru-oil (along with the neck and pegbox). The top was sized with egg white, had a shellac wash coat and then a few coats of Tru-oil.

Tuning from low to high is Dd Ff Gg Cc (Octave pairs) ff aa dd g'. Think of it as a normal six string guitar in standard tuning with the third string down a semitone to F#. Now put two more strings on the bottom - D and Bb. Put octave strings on the bottom four courses and double up the next three courses as unisons. Finally put a capo on the third fret - that's now in eight course lute tuning. The strings are
Pyramid (German made) that Colin got for me with the following gauges (mm):

Fundamental/Octave
1st 0.450
2nd 0.550
3rd 0.675
4th 0.52w
5th 0.66w/ 0.600
6th 0.80w/ 0.675
7th 0.90w/ 0.750
8th 1.02w/ 0.800

I documented Eggbert’s build here on The Luthier Community forum. Getting used to pegs with 1:1 gearing is "interesting" and keeping newish strings in tune even more so - especially as most are in pairs. But I stumbled my way through something and did a recording. My playing is awful having to fumble around finding the right strings - there are a lot, but here it is anyway. It's Track 40 on the Jukebox here on the Sounds page of my website. First I play all the eight strings for the tuning and then go into noodling which I'm calling for now "If it ain't baroque, don't fix it".

Some pictures:


Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

Thanks for looking and listening.
Last edited by Dave White on Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dave White
[url=http://www.defaoiteguitars.com]De Faoite Stringed Instruments[/url]

User avatar
sebastiaan56
Blackwood
Posts: 1283
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:23 am
Location: Blue Mountains

Post by sebastiaan56 » Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:50 am

Wow Dave,

I would have called you a luthier before that..... How many tops did you chew up before you got the rose right?
make mine fifths........

User avatar
Allen
Blackwood
Posts: 5259
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:39 pm
Location: Cairns, Australia
Contact:

Post by Allen » Wed Jul 08, 2009 5:49 am

It's just amazing how complicated that instrument is, and designed in an age long before power tools. I watched your build thread, and I'm in awe of the skill and perseverance it takes to complete one of these.

And play one is even more intimidating IMO.

So very well done Dave. You're most definitely a luthier.
Allen R. McFarlen
https://www.brguitars.com
Facebook
Cairns, Australia

User avatar
Nick
Blackwood
Posts: 3640
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:20 am
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Contact:

Post by Nick » Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:03 am

One word Beeeeeeeeautiful

My sentiments are mirrored in Allen's post Dave, I saw this all come together over at LuthierCom.
Between Your beautiful work & Martin's progress, a lute has made it onto my list of 'to build'. Thanks for sharing your skill & build pics, thanks also to your Mentor Colin. The Luthier community need people such as him that are only too willing to share rather than keeping "their eleven secret herbs & spices methods" to themselves.
I doff my cap to you sir. :cl :cl :cl :cl :cl :cl
"Jesus Loves You."
Nice to hear in church but not in a Mexican prison.

User avatar
Localele
Moderator
Posts: 367
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:54 am
Location: Corndale,NSW
Contact:

Post by Localele » Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:06 am

Fantastic job Dave.I imagine finishing the lute would give the same feeling as your first guitar.Sounds lovely too.Cheers.
Cheers from Micheal.

Remember the "5P Rule".
Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance.

User avatar
ozziebluesman
Blackwood
Posts: 1550
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:12 am
Location: Townsville
Contact:

Post by ozziebluesman » Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:21 am

Congratulations Dave. What a wonderful instrument. Such fine detail in that rosette. I couldn't imagine where to start trying to play it. Thanks for sharing with us.

Cheers

Alan
"Play to express, not to impress"

Alan Hamley

http://www.hamleyfineguitars.com/

Hesh1956
Blackwood
Posts: 1418
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:58 am

Post by Hesh1956 » Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:01 am

"At Last I'm A Luthier"

Agreed and I'll add that you Dave have been a Luthier IMO for quite some time now.

The lute is beautiful Dave and even more special because of the collaboration with Colin.

It does not get any better than this! :cl :cl :cl :cl :cl :cl :cl

User avatar
rocket
Blackwood
Posts: 1210
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:43 pm
Location: melbourne,, outer east
Contact:

lute

Post by rocket » Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:49 pm

Dave White,,,,, Fantastic mate, like the scene from waynes world, i am not worthy, i am not worthy, i am not worthy. beautiful beautiful beautiful job.

User avatar
rocket
Blackwood
Posts: 1210
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:43 pm
Location: melbourne,, outer east
Contact:

lute build

Post by rocket » Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:53 pm

gives one something to aspire to,

User avatar
Kim
Admin
Posts: 4372
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:32 pm
Location: South of Perth WA

Post by Kim » Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:53 pm

Very, very polished effort Dave.

You must be feeling very proud of yourself as this is quite an accomplishment. It looks fantastic, it sounds fantastic and what an incredibly rewarding achievement to add to your bulging collection. A luthier? There was never any question about that. Congrats to you and to Collin as well, what an incredibly generous and man he is with his knowledge.

Cheers to you both :gui

Kim

User avatar
Craig
Admin
Posts: 1090
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:08 am
Location: N.S.W. in the bush

Post by Craig » Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:23 pm

Awesome in every detail Dave and Colin . Fantastic craftsmanship
Craig Lawrence

User avatar
Dave White
Blackwood
Posts: 452
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:10 am
Location: Hughenden Valley, England
Contact:

Post by Dave White » Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:50 pm

Sebastiaan - Thanks. There was no option really as Colin gave me the 90 year old top :shock: He did give me a scrap piece to practice on and I used that a little until I got the idea and then went straight to the top. One piece did "pop" out when I was doing the 3D carving but I found it and glued it back in. Colin tells me this happens a lot :D

Allen - Thanks. The skill level to make a lute is not outside the bounds of most guitar makers and I'd urge everyone to have a try. Having said that making a really top class Rose is another matter and I suspect to do that you have to make lots. As for playing it, having played mostly in "non standard" tunings and having dabbled with harp guitars it's not as alien to me as it might be to others. However, I'm really only scratching the surface but intend to learn more complex stuff.

Nick - Thanks. Colin is a star and even better he has a similar sense of humour to me :D

Localele - Thanks. Yes I like making different instruments, I think I'd get bored just cranking out the same few models.

Alan - Thanks. I think you'd manage to play one just fine once you had got used to the "geography" and beer belly meets bowl back. It's a bit like playing an armadillo :shock:

Hesh - Thanks. Yes this instrument has part of Colin's soul in it and it will be treasured.

Rocket - Thanks. I suspect you are very worthy :D

Kim - Thanks. I'm feeling proud but comparing it with the creations of today's great luthiers (such as Colin) it's as rough as a badger's arse, but it's mine and it sounds great to me. There's a huge range of lutes and baroque guitars that Colin keeps teasing me with pictures that could keep me occupied for years making "modern" versions of.

Craig - thanks.

I'll keep wayching Martin's progress with interest - his lute will be awesome.
Dave White
[url=http://www.defaoiteguitars.com]De Faoite Stringed Instruments[/url]

User avatar
Bob Connor
Admin
Posts: 3126
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:43 pm
Location: Geelong, Australia
Contact:

Post by Bob Connor » Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:02 pm

Lovely work Dave and it certainly doesn't resemble a badgers arse.

Anything in there that'll get moved into your guitar building?
Bob, Geelong
_______________________________________

Mainwaring and Connor Guitars

User avatar
Dave White
Blackwood
Posts: 452
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:10 am
Location: Hughenden Valley, England
Contact:

Post by Dave White » Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:10 pm

Bob,

Thanks. I'm currently making a harp guitar and am toying with the idea of doing a "mini" Rose in the hollow arm, and maybe for side soundports. I also wouldn't mind doing some modern versions of the vaulted or fluted back old small guitars.
Dave White
[url=http://www.defaoiteguitars.com]De Faoite Stringed Instruments[/url]

User avatar
kiwigeo
Admin
Posts: 10778
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 5:57 pm
Location: Adelaide, Sth Australia

Post by kiwigeo » Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:39 am

Inspiring work as always Dave but at the same time after a frustrating rib bending session in the shop I jump on the net and gaze at your handiwork and feel even more frustrated.

User avatar
Taffy Evans
Blackwood
Posts: 1067
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:54 pm
Location: Charters Towers North Queensland

Post by Taffy Evans » Thu Jul 09, 2009 7:53 pm

Fantastic Dave, thats a test of a mans skill and attention to detail, an instrument to be really proud of. I admire your work, thanks for showing.
Taff

User avatar
Dave White
Blackwood
Posts: 452
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:10 am
Location: Hughenden Valley, England
Contact:

Post by Dave White » Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:59 pm

Martin,

Keep at it - you'll get there in the end. If I were a perfectionist I would still be building that lute in twenty years time but I'm anxious to get to the playing stage and so compromise. I suspect you have "perfectionist tendencies" :D If it helps here's a picture of my lute rib "graveyard":

Image

Making a card template of each new rib you are going to fit and dry fitting it on the form before using it to make the actual rib might help. This is what I did on the last few ribs.

Taffy - thank you.
Dave White
[url=http://www.defaoiteguitars.com]De Faoite Stringed Instruments[/url]

User avatar
kiwigeo
Admin
Posts: 10778
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 5:57 pm
Location: Adelaide, Sth Australia

Post by kiwigeo » Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:51 am

Hi Dave,

I actually had to make up a rejigged template for Rib No 3 as the fit was way out at the arse end of the instrument. Van Andrews actually instructs to check his templates fit the mold before starting.

Your pile of discarded ribs looks about the same size as mine.

Cheers Martin

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 123 guests