BZ where do you draw the line between price and quality

[James Mc]

With the wet weather putting other things on hold, I’ve been planning what to do when the current projects are done. One is a classical for a friend, he has been hanging out in my workshop and pestering me too build it for him for months, I tried to talk him to having Allen do it but he wants me to build it right or wrong (I think so he can help out). He is a vary good solo guitarist and has his dream guitar firmly in mind. BZ rosewood, German Spruce, Spanish cedar neck with ebony laminates. I’ve tried to talk him out of the BZ as being over priced and over rated, but he’s a stubborn musician and thinks he knows what he wants, so BZ it is.

I contacted a mate at CITES in Brazil (and I didn’t think being a greenie would be of value in building guitars) and he gave pointed me at a couple of companies that export legal BZ. What I found after a bit of research is that BZ is expensive but that there is a huge price difference between the grades that doesn’t seem justified by the difference in quality. I showed my mate (Tom) what’s on offer and he has picked a couple of sets he likes to give me an idea of what he wants but is leaving the final choice up to me.

The pics below are the sets he picked out, price is an issue so I’m leaning towards the budget set but was wondering what you guys and gals thought. The cheaper set has a few worm holes that would need to be filled, I’m wondering if that is enough of a detraction to justify spending his hard saved cash on the better set. The price is in the photos, double it for Australian dollars.

[Alfred J]

That A grade set seems too cheap for BRW. Warning bells! You get what you pay for. If your mate has the $$$ and is prepared to part with them maybe the higher priced set would be the way to go. Hand built in BRW - a few hundred dollars extra hardly seems an issue.

[Bob Connor]

That cheap set is slab sawn so I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.

Can't really see the second set in the photo but it looks like some of the really dark quartersawn stuff like I have.

Bear in mind that if you do build this bloke his dream Brazilian guitar that you'll be probably be repairing cracks that will inexplicably appear at some stage down the track.

There's good reason that a premium of up to $2000 USD is tacked on to Brazilian Rosewood instruments. It's not the cost of the wood. It's the warranty work down the track.

Braz is notoriosly unstable.

[brian64]

For a little bit more than the expensive set, you can there's a nice looking BRW set on E-Bay in Victoria (and you won't have to pay for shipping or deal with international shippers, import issues, potential quarantine issues). Can I post the link to the auction on the forum?

[Kim]

Yes you can

[Bob Connor]

That's Barry Kerr who is selling it so there'll be no problem with the quality of it.

However it is still slab sawn.

[brian64]

The auction is at http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll ... 0313132959 . Too expensive for my current skill to do it justice, but may be good for James and his client.

[Kim]

That cheap set is slab sawn so I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.

Can't really see the second set in the photo but it looks like some of the really dark quartersawn stuff like I have.

Bear in mind that if you do build this bloke his dream Brazilian guitar that you'll be probably be repairing cracks that will inexplicably appear at some stage down the track.

There's good reason that a premium of up to $2000 USD is tacked on to Brazilian Rosewood instruments. It's not the cost of the wood. It's the warranty work down the track.

Braz is notoriosly unstable.

All true words Bob and after photo shopping the second set I can see that it too is slab cut stump wood. The short grain in the back set looks to be a bit of a worry, especially at the waist area and mid lower bout and the sides look down right scary. Just my opinion but I would not buy any of this wood.



Cheers

Kim

[Hesh1956]

A couple of things: Yes you can is something that I would agree with in that BRW is no more difficult to work with than say coco and it glues better than coco.

When evaluating BRW it has to be done in a context that is specific to BRW because of CITES and the scarcity and price of the wood.

Both sets are VERY inexpensive by US standards and what we have here does not have CITES paperwork which is said here to add greatly to the price/cost.

It's nearly impossible to find BRW here that is not slab sawn without paying $1,200 or up......

You might also want to let the client know that a BRW guitar is not something that will be able to be taken out of the country without the potential for CITES hassles.

Lastly - I don't know if this is valid or not but in my mind pore filling BRW with epoxy may also help stabilize the wood a bit. Again I don't know and I am thinking out loud here.

Both sets look like BRW to me.

[Allen]

Barry Kerr at Woodtone Guitars has been selling off some Pre CITIES Brazilian lately on Ebay. You could drop him an email and tell him what you're looking for, or I have his phone number if your what to give him a call and see what he has to offer. He's a great to deal with, and has been very honest and up front with everything I've bought from him.

The sets that I've seen of his look to be more slab cut than 1/4, but never having used it, I've got no idea on it's workability or even what you look for in a set.

Good luck with this.

[Bob Connor]

I had the opportunity to get my grubby mits on some primo quartersawn Brazilian Rosewood when I was in the US last year. (about 20 sets)

It was beautiful wood that rang like a bell with that high end, glassy ping that you would expect from Brazilian Rosewood. It certainly sounded a lot better than the Brazilian in my stash.

That same day I found some back and side sets in this warehouse with the most amazing tap tone. I felt it was better than the Brazilian. Upon enquiring I found out that it was Honduran Rosewood. So impressed was I that I ended up buying some of it.

The tonewood vendor who sold it to me is also a luthier who was telling me that he had built two identical guitars some years ago. One from Brazilian and the other from Honduran. In his assessment the Honduran Rosewood guitar was the better of the two instruments.

The reason that I tell this tale is that you have a couple of options.

The first is to pay a fortune for sub-standard, flat sawn Brazilian Rosewood.

The second is to pay a couple of hundred bucks for primo, quarter sawn Honduran Rosewood or Cocobolo which will be sonically the equivalent and structurally superior.

If he still wants a Brazilian guitar I would offer no warranty.

Either way I think you should explain the pros and cons of the two options
and give him the opportunity to consider those options.

The bloke I was talking about before was Steve Roberson at Colonial Tonewoods.

[James Mc]

Thanks All
I have shown him the set Barry has on ebay and he wasn’t into the winged back or lack of mirroring on the back plates. Barry is great (lovely guy), I’ve got some fantastic wood from him and he did a great job resawing some of the timber I had in my stash, but this set just didn’t ring my mate’s bells (or mine to be honest, but then I’m not a fan of BZ).

I should point out that I’m building this guitar at mate’s rates (cost of materials plus beer) Tom works in the real charity sector (60 hrs a week for twenty hrs pay), so this is a huge investment for him and I doubt his budget would stretch to having a real luthier build it. As for warranty, I’m doing this as a favour so there isn’t one, and having filled many cracks in antique BZ furniture I wouldn’t offer one even if I was a professional doing it for a living.

Your posts have convinced me that I need to have another go at talking him out of BZ, it’s just going to be more trouble than it is worth to use it. I have a couple of beautiful sets of madagascar rosewood stashed away, one for a personal guitar at some stage, maybe one of these will float his boat (I doubt most people could tell it apart from BZ in looks or sound). I think I’ll also show him Mexican crack wood guitar Bob posted a while back (the most beautiful guitar I’ve ever seen), if that doesn’t convince him that there are better and more beautiful alternatives to BZ then nothing will. While I suspect it could almost be as painful to build it with ziricote, at least I’d be getting to use a timber I’ve wanted to play with. Honduran Rosewood would be another option worth considering, maybe not as visually striking as the others but everything I’ve read rates it as a great tonewood.

[Bob Connor]

James - I didn't find Ziricote difficult to work with at all. Maybe I got lucky but no cracks, no problems sanding it etc.

I agree, Mad Rosewood would be a great alternative.

[Allen]

Man, what I wouldn't give to have a mate just pay cost plus beer for a guitar.

[Kim]

Man, what I wouldn't give to have a mate just pay cost plus beer for a guitar.

Ooooo yeah! Especially at the speed I build. I could pay off the mortgage with what I would save over the first 5 years and then I could give up the day job and really focus on drinking...oh erm... I mean building his guitar. Dam I would even be willing to throw in the material

Cheers

Kim

[Allen]

I hear ya Kim.

[James Mc]

yes well the other issue I made clear to him apart from the problems with BZ is that I wouldn't expect to have it done for about a year... and still wasn't enough to put him off

[Hesh1956]

Bob makes a great point about Honduran Rosewood being not only a great, less expensive alternative to BRW but it is also very available, 1/4 sawn, does not have a bunch of stinkin worm holes in it, won't get your guitar seized at a international border, AND IMHO it sounds as good or better than BRW if you are seeking a rosewood sounding guitar.

Also I heard the story of how ziricote got to be called Mexican Crack Wood. Several HGFs (Healsburg Guitar Festivals) ago on one of the days the RH dropped in northern California. On that day three separate ziricote guitars all built by top Luthiers that were on display cracked......

So it's not just the potential for cracks while building with it - it may make an unstable guitar and not in the sense that the guitar needs to see a therapist once a week.....