Has anyone here played one of these? His string anchoring looks ungainly to me, but to my mind makes sense structurally.
http://www.babiczguitars.com/
Talk about Jeff Babicz?
There's a dealer about 40 klicks east of me that carries Babicz! I tryed to find them but was pressed for time. This weekend I'm gonna go, back with the map, I'm curious!
Have you tryed one?
Yea! It makes sense, but I think there's issues, if I remember somebody saying. I was interested because the string torque may have something to do with the normal sound of a typical instrument.
I'll let everybody know what comes of it!
Have you tryed one?
Yea! It makes sense, but I think there's issues, if I remember somebody saying. I was interested because the string torque may have something to do with the normal sound of a typical instrument.
I'll let everybody know what comes of it!
And yet another perspective.
Just looking at the design and I don't like the tension that I feel seeing exposed strings where my arm is going to live.
And although I have never played one I would also be concerned about distributing the torque, sheer, and tension to the tail end of the guitar.
OTOH it could be that the exposed strings over the top passively pick-up vibration from the top and create a cascading harmonic resonance with the top.
I would like to try one.
And although I have never played one I would also be concerned about distributing the torque, sheer, and tension to the tail end of the guitar.
OTOH it could be that the exposed strings over the top passively pick-up vibration from the top and create a cascading harmonic resonance with the top.
I would like to try one.
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Paul B
I don't like the design all that much.
Seems to me that if the top of a guitar is like a spring, or a speaker cone, then you want to focus your enegy input at the place on the top where it moves the most, which is going to be somewhere near the middle of the lower bout. There might be some gains (of some kind) to be made anchoring the strings like that, but wouldn't it be at the expense of responsiveness?
Still, that guy makes money building guitars, and I don't, so....
I'd like to play one, or at least hear one.
Seems to me that if the top of a guitar is like a spring, or a speaker cone, then you want to focus your enegy input at the place on the top where it moves the most, which is going to be somewhere near the middle of the lower bout. There might be some gains (of some kind) to be made anchoring the strings like that, but wouldn't it be at the expense of responsiveness?
Still, that guy makes money building guitars, and I don't, so....
I'd like to play one, or at least hear one.
True to my word, I went to Alta Loma Music today. A medium sized music store in ....you guess it Alta Loma! 
They had none in stock. I talked to Pete who said there was some real distribution problems with Babicz.
There was a long hair type working there too, named Brent he was pretty cool. So common sense would tell you he would of played one! Believe it or not common sense didn't lie this time!
Brent said he liked the guitar, and we discussed the theory but in the end he said it really didn't sound much better than any other guitar!
The price range of the ones there were at $7500.00-9000.00 filthy American dollars!
They had none in stock. I talked to Pete who said there was some real distribution problems with Babicz.
There was a long hair type working there too, named Brent he was pretty cool. So common sense would tell you he would of played one! Believe it or not common sense didn't lie this time!
Brent said he liked the guitar, and we discussed the theory but in the end he said it really didn't sound much better than any other guitar!
The price range of the ones there were at $7500.00-9000.00 filthy American dollars!
I have played a few of these guitars, both some of the hand made ones and a few of the Asian made ones. I met Jeff Babicz at the 2005 ASIA symposium, where he had a table displaying some of his hand made "Signature" guitars. Even though I did present myself a a hobby builder he was very willing to "show and tell" about his adjustable neck joint (which is very smooth), explain his thoughts behind the string anchoring system and the bridge, and discuss their sonic effects.
I think they sound a bit like flat top guitars with tail pieces, which IMO are quiet and dull, (unlike arch tops with tail pieces, they can have great projection and cutting power). This is to be expected as they (Babitz' guitars) work a bit on the same principle, even if they perhaps look a bit more fancy. They also have the added weight of the string anchors and the over size bridge which can't help. I don't know how they are braced, but at least there must be some reinforcement around the anchors, which also serve to stiffen the top in this area, and kill some of the vibrations there. I also find the fanned out strings behind the bridge to be a bit of a nuisance. Long story short; I don't like them.
I think they sound a bit like flat top guitars with tail pieces, which IMO are quiet and dull, (unlike arch tops with tail pieces, they can have great projection and cutting power). This is to be expected as they (Babitz' guitars) work a bit on the same principle, even if they perhaps look a bit more fancy. They also have the added weight of the string anchors and the over size bridge which can't help. I don't know how they are braced, but at least there must be some reinforcement around the anchors, which also serve to stiffen the top in this area, and kill some of the vibrations there. I also find the fanned out strings behind the bridge to be a bit of a nuisance. Long story short; I don't like them.
Last edited by Arnt on Thu Oct 18, 2007 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
Arnt Rian,
Norway
Norway
CHR
Cascading harmonic resonance is a term that I coined AFTER having the pleasure of spending 1/2 an hour alone with two Somogyi guitars.
It was the only term/expression that I could think of that described what I was hearing (and feeling physically) while playing a Somogyi.
Both of these guitars did a really, really weird AND wonderful thing - they sounded like heaven in ALL respects.
Now you guys know me well enough to know that I am usually one to say something sounds like shit if it indeed does and I am asked for my opinion to be honestly provided. As much as I am a competitive sort (an understatement....) and I would have liked to be able to find fault with a Somogyi but these guitars were the finest that I have ever played by far.
When you hit a note or a cord you hear the initial attack, it swells, and then almost like a switching amplifier the swell exploits the natural harmonic resonance frequencies of the guitar's parts (not just the top) and the rest of the guitar starts vibrating sympathetically and the sound gets louder, fuller, warmer, yes, yes, yes - the word orgasmic comes to mind.... Another way to say this is that the sound swells like a guitar on Viagra.....
Seriously - I am not kidding here. These are tone machines and a small input in short order gets the whole thing vibrating like no other guitar that I have ever played.
So I coined the term cascading harmonic resonance to describe when the vibration of a guitar is multiplied by the design, construction, materials, and master craftsmanship of the guitar to produce a sound far greater than the sum of it's parts.
I think that other stringed instruments have strings that are not played but passively vibrate to increase output. The Babbatz design looks capable of this to me.
It was the only term/expression that I could think of that described what I was hearing (and feeling physically) while playing a Somogyi.
Both of these guitars did a really, really weird AND wonderful thing - they sounded like heaven in ALL respects.
Now you guys know me well enough to know that I am usually one to say something sounds like shit if it indeed does and I am asked for my opinion to be honestly provided. As much as I am a competitive sort (an understatement....) and I would have liked to be able to find fault with a Somogyi but these guitars were the finest that I have ever played by far.
When you hit a note or a cord you hear the initial attack, it swells, and then almost like a switching amplifier the swell exploits the natural harmonic resonance frequencies of the guitar's parts (not just the top) and the rest of the guitar starts vibrating sympathetically and the sound gets louder, fuller, warmer, yes, yes, yes - the word orgasmic comes to mind.... Another way to say this is that the sound swells like a guitar on Viagra.....
Seriously - I am not kidding here. These are tone machines and a small input in short order gets the whole thing vibrating like no other guitar that I have ever played.
So I coined the term cascading harmonic resonance to describe when the vibration of a guitar is multiplied by the design, construction, materials, and master craftsmanship of the guitar to produce a sound far greater than the sum of it's parts.
I think that other stringed instruments have strings that are not played but passively vibrate to increase output. The Babbatz design looks capable of this to me.
Somogyi
There is a bit of a secret handshake club around Somogyi guitars since he teaches concepts and then sends his students home to find their own implementation of the concepts..... But as you know if two ancient societies on different sides of the planet both needed to build and design say a boat both boats would to some degree look much alike. Form follows function.
Here are some of the things that I know or suspect about the Somogyi sound.
1) Sides are super stiff - doubled in fact and laminated
2) Sides are NOT profiled to match the dome, back or front
3) Bracing is all his own design with some latice shapes, an X, parabolic shaped braces, lower X legs not inlet into the kerfed linings
4) Bridge plate is BRW, curved, beveled and butted to the X but not inlet
5) Tops can be as thin as .065....... not kidding here, you can see through them.....
6) Though not always many of his guitars are BRW which of course helps
7) He has a personal relationship with God - Todd Taggert at Allied. This affords Ervin the opportunity since he lives an hour away to go through hundreds of tops and pick one or two that are the stiffest available..... This alone, although it may sound like a small thing, is one of the most important factors that contribute to his tone. With his ability to select from hundreds of tops he can keep the mass down, stiffness up, and his light weight construction holds together.
Here are some of the things that I know or suspect about the Somogyi sound.
1) Sides are super stiff - doubled in fact and laminated
2) Sides are NOT profiled to match the dome, back or front
3) Bracing is all his own design with some latice shapes, an X, parabolic shaped braces, lower X legs not inlet into the kerfed linings
4) Bridge plate is BRW, curved, beveled and butted to the X but not inlet
5) Tops can be as thin as .065....... not kidding here, you can see through them.....
6) Though not always many of his guitars are BRW which of course helps
7) He has a personal relationship with God - Todd Taggert at Allied. This affords Ervin the opportunity since he lives an hour away to go through hundreds of tops and pick one or two that are the stiffest available..... This alone, although it may sound like a small thing, is one of the most important factors that contribute to his tone. With his ability to select from hundreds of tops he can keep the mass down, stiffness up, and his light weight construction holds together.
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Bob Connor
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Exactly - that is what he told me a few months ago. Cases are extra (JUST KIDDING)bob wrote:I think Ervin's current starting price is $25,000 USD Serge
But you know if you have the bucks, appreciate the very best, his guitars are pretty special. One of Ervin's guitars is a fixture in the White House I read somewhere too.
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matthew
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Interesting what he writes about sides not vibrating.
In the world of double bass, I think it's generally thought that it is important to keep the sides as thin as possible so that they can vibrate, or at least, twist, while staying structurally strong enough to keep the thing together.
I dont know what to think!
In the world of double bass, I think it's generally thought that it is important to keep the sides as thin as possible so that they can vibrate, or at least, twist, while staying structurally strong enough to keep the thing together.
I dont know what to think!
Yea! Join the club!I dont know what to think!
I don't think anybody does. The real work to find out what happens in a string instrument doesn't happen because the people who have the resource.. time/money, don't care, and the people who don't have time/money are building guitars!(Er.. basses too!!)
I've been partial to the Somogyi approach of what I've heard of it, thick stiff sides, thin tops, high thin braces, it just makes sense but who knows. Are they more likely guessing even if the empiric points in that direction also.
P.S. Don't tell Hesh I agree with Somogyi, he loves the guy, he get's all slobbery, all he says is Somogyi- Somogyi- Somogyi when he gets going! I think his Yogi even gave it to him as a mantra! Its quite disturbing to see!
I find these comparables between instruments very interesting Matt.There are a heap of guitars around with thin sides that sound great too. Their sides obviously radiate sound. My own thinking is based on my piano background rather than Somogyi , but it's the same principal. Pianos have an incredibly stiff thick laminated rim to contain as much of the soundboards energy as possible , and not loose any to the sides. Smallman guitars are another example . I'm not saying that is right or wrong, it just makes more sense to me. It does make the instrument heavier , which is sometimes a 'turn-off' to some players.matthew wrote:Interesting what he writes about sides not vibrating.
In the world of double bass, I think it's generally thought that it is important to keep the sides as thin as possible so that they can vibrate, or at least, twist, while staying structurally strong enough to keep the thing together.
I dont know what to think!
My first guitar has very light Mahogany sides and is great to play. You can feel the thing thumping on your chest. I built my new 12 string with thick sides and beefy liners. It's early days yet , but I think the heavier sides give a bit more horse power out front
I wonder if a double bass might not work well with heavier sides ? Has anyone tryed it ?Of course ,you guys also have a soundpost connecting top to back which makes the big difference between instruments.
I once installed a soundpost on an old guitar I have to see what would happen . The result was it shortened up the sustain a lot and sounded a little muted . I should have thought to play it with a bow , it may have made a difference. In any case ,it wasn't a good experiment , as I have no idea what the plates were tuned to ,and I'm sure that would be a big factor.
Matt, could you tell us what the plate tuning is all about on your instruments ? , and do you ever suffer any wolf notes ?
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Bob Connor
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Remember the Ervin vids that were up on the OLF for a little while.
They are definitely worth a look if you haven't seen them.
Well I've still got them if anyone wants a squiz.
http://www.connor.net.au/somogyi/index.html
Craig - I know you're bandwidth challenged. If you want 'em let me know and I'll send a CD.
Bob
They are definitely worth a look if you haven't seen them.
Well I've still got them if anyone wants a squiz.
http://www.connor.net.au/somogyi/index.html
Craig - I know you're bandwidth challenged. If you want 'em let me know and I'll send a CD.
Bob
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matthew
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Oh I don't go for all that plate tuning quackery 
In other words, I tried it, didn't really understand it, was too impatient to persist with it. I tapped it here i tapped it there and it all sounded rather nice so I left it at that.
I don't think a soundpost would work in a guitar because of the way the strings are anchored in the belly. An archtop, maybe. The soundpost dictates the point of NO vibration and the bridge has a levering motion on the soundboard with the treble foot/soundpost as a fulcrum. The bigger vibrations are transmit to the upper and lower bouits by the bass-bar. The centre of the plate is thicker than the edges for strength and to provide more mass/inertia when the thing gets vibrating (i think of it as a big tabla skin with the leather disk providing extra mass in the middle)
I like a really stiff neck because it makes sense to me that a flexible neck will dampen string vibration, so a stiff neck will have the opposite effect and benefit sustain.
I don't know about stiff sides vs thin sides. hard to tell.
Oh and yes, we have wolf notes. Luckily though, I haven't had any yet that I can find.
In other words, I tried it, didn't really understand it, was too impatient to persist with it. I tapped it here i tapped it there and it all sounded rather nice so I left it at that.
I don't think a soundpost would work in a guitar because of the way the strings are anchored in the belly. An archtop, maybe. The soundpost dictates the point of NO vibration and the bridge has a levering motion on the soundboard with the treble foot/soundpost as a fulcrum. The bigger vibrations are transmit to the upper and lower bouits by the bass-bar. The centre of the plate is thicker than the edges for strength and to provide more mass/inertia when the thing gets vibrating (i think of it as a big tabla skin with the leather disk providing extra mass in the middle)
I like a really stiff neck because it makes sense to me that a flexible neck will dampen string vibration, so a stiff neck will have the opposite effect and benefit sustain.
I don't know about stiff sides vs thin sides. hard to tell.
Oh and yes, we have wolf notes. Luckily though, I haven't had any yet that I can find.
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Paul B
My understanding was that a sound post is there so that the top and back plates vibrate in phase with one another. A guitar sounds better if the plates are a little out of phase and that tuning the plates on either type of instrument will give you some control over this. Funny tho, I would have thought that the sound post was in just the right place to get the back in phase with the top without robbing too much energy from the top, rather than being in the place of no vibration. But then I don't know shit, I just kinda make it up as I go along.
Sorry Matt ,I should have explained , my soundpost experiment was on an old archtop type guitar, and I placed it just behind the bridge treble side ,as you would a violin.
I can't see a guitar working with a soundpost anyway , as the back has a fair amount of contact with the player's body,,,,,,,,,unless I install a "chest rest "
I can't see a guitar working with a soundpost anyway , as the back has a fair amount of contact with the player's body,,,,,,,,,unless I install a "chest rest "
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matthew
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Dunno. imagine a pebble falling into the pond, with waves radiating outwards. The soundpost seems to dictate that point. If the soundpost is right UNDER the treble bridge foot you get virtually no treble response cos treble side cannot move the top. Move soundpost towards the tail relative to the treble foot, and the tone changes. Move it outwards towards the C bout and the relative volume of the bass side increases cos more movement is possible, a bigger lever action.Paul B wrote:My understanding was that a sound post is there so that the top and back plates vibrate in phase with one another.
I feel that the back vibrates in sympathy with the top, rather than the soundpost transmitting vibrations. Also it feels like the ribs transmit a lot of vibration to the back.
Also the tailpiece has a BIG influence on the sound that comes out, heavier usually means less treble response (works well for arco) and lighter gives a brighter sound (good for pizz). Long tailpiece wire reduces the string tension feel cos the whole tailpiece can vibrate easily, a short wire anchors the tailpiece and keeps the strings more rigid and the "feel" a bit stiffer.
We should get together and have a show and tell one day.
(oh and yeah people DO try to tune the plates, but I don't really know what use tuning a free plate is, because as soon as you glue it to the ribs all the tuning you might have done will, according to my logic, be irrelevant because the plate is under tension and restricted. All the nodes will have changed. Now if you could "tune" a plate in a glued-up guitar/bass it might be a better prospect IMO)
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