12 string update pics

[kiwigeo]

Craig,

Your compensation comments were a great help thanks.

[joel]

Is the stewmac intonator thingo working out well?

[kiwigeo]

Joel,

The Stewmac intonator is great, although on the 12 string you can only do 6 strings at a time and as you can see from the pics I couldnt get the intonator to fit around the end pin so had to use a piece of string instead.

I used the intonator on a recent saddle re-route on a friends 6 string and it worked a treat. Its a very useful loittle tool.

Cheers Martin

[Kim]

That is one fine looking instrument you have going on there Martin. I know we all mess about a fair bit here at the ANZLF, but I must take a moment to step back from my usual denigrations and say, as a Luthier my friend, you certainly are going forward in leaps and bounds.

Well done mate, very tight

Cheers

Kim

[kiwigeo]

Thanks Kim,

Lets just hold off the accolades until the thing is fully strung up and singing. This guitar like all before it has been a learning experience and there are quite a few things id do differently next time around. One thing I discovered today was that the tuner placement wasnt quite spot on to allow strings 2 and 11 to clear tuners for strings 1 and 12. Next time Ill do a full scale drawing of nut and headstock to get it perfect.

Im 6 bridge pins short so a full string up will have to wait till next week when spares arrive.

Cheers Martin

[kiwigeo]

Okay I finally got the compensation sorted. In case anyone is interested results were as follows:

String (guage) -compensation

1 (0.010") - +3.5mm
2 (0.010") - +3.5mm

3 (0.014") - +6.0mm <== not a mistake
4 (0.014") - +6.5mm

5 (0.023") - +3.5mm
6 (0.008") - +2.5mm

7 (0.030") - +6.0mm
8 (0.012") - +4.5mm

9 (0.039") - +8.0mm
10 (0.018") - +6.0mm

11 (0.047") - +6.0mm
12 (0.027") - +6.5mm

Scale length is 25.3" (643mm).

[Lillian]

Well??? How does she sing? It beautiful, not that we would have expected anything less, but the real important part is the sound. Sound clip please?

[Allen]

That's really interesting Martin. How did you handle that much difference between 1-2 and 3-4? Wide saddle or split saddle?

[jeffhigh]

Hi Martin,
Are these results with strings at final playing height?
2-3 and 9-10 look really suspicious and I would not expect 12 to be longer than 11

[Craig]

Martin ,
I agree with Jeff , the figures don't seem right to me at all ! .

I'm trying to think of where you may have gone wrong. Your nut slots pictured earlier look to be way too high to be able to do the intonation correctly. Maybe ,that's part of it ??,, or your tuner ?,, or wolf notes ?, or that 'intonator thing '? It may be a combination of one or all !

12 and 11 can't be right ! , and the A string longer than the E ???? . The high "G" needs to be way forward also .




Take another good look at my notes on your 12 string compensation thread . Did you not read it ??? The saddle positions should look a lot like this :





Also note Alan Carruth's 12 string saddle compensation to be virtually an identical pattern


I'm hoping you haven't already slotted the bridge !

[vinman]

Beautiful work Martin. I love the bound fretboard and headstock, and that rosette is gorgeous.

Vince

[kiwigeo]

Okay you can stop bldi panicking you guys. I've routed the slot but its a bldi 5.5mm wide saddle so there's heaps of leeway for ridge positon on top of same.

Yes the nut slots are way high. I dont cut them down to final depth until saddle is in. I rough out intonation only to work out where to cut the saddle slot. If I was using a narrower saddle I'd cut the nut slots to final depth before fitting saddle. There is method in my madness.

Jeez youd think I'd just destroyed the guitar....

[jeffhigh]

Martin
A useful tool for determining saddle position is the Stewmac fret calculator
http://www.stewmac.com/cgi-bin/hazel.cgi
which gives positions for high and low E

I suspect you are probably 1.5mm too long on all your compensation lengths due to high nut slots and or high strings at the saddle.

[Craig]

Okay you can stop bldi panicking you guys. I've routed the slot but its a bldi 5.5mm wide saddle so there's heaps of leeway for ridge positon on top of same.

No there ain't ! . Not on a fully compensated 12 string. As you can see by my above pic , You'll need the full 5 mm. to have it intonate correctly.

Sorry to see you so upset Martin ,old buddy , old mate . We are just trying to help here , not have a go at you !

Remember : Everything is repairable !

Cheers Mate

[kiwigeo]

Im off to the dentist so the 12 string is going to have to gather dust today.

All your advice, comments and arse whipping have been taken on board.

[kiwigeo]

Okay,

Ive got the saddle fitted and have been fiddling with intonation on bass E pair, top E pair and the G octave pairs. All intonate ok with exception of string 11 (low E slightly sharp) which needs to go back a fraction on the saddle and the G octave (string 6) that is right at front of saddle and could move a fraction forward (slightly flat).

The end analysis.....saddle needs to rotate a fraction. Anyway Im going to string up the thing because I cant wait to hear what it sounds like and then do a saddle slot fill and re-route job. Ive already done one of these this week so might as well get good at it.

Just for the record I totally f***ed up the saddle job because I didnt pay attention to Craig's detailed and learned instructions. Ive got big time egg on my face...but the whites will come on handy for my next pore fill job.

[Allen]

So, what do you think has been the stuff up Martin? String hight?

I'm not trying to rub it in, just hoping not to make the same mistake.

[Dominic]

Hey Martin, I mentioned to Graham the other day how you seem to have incredible patience. Didn't you re-do the back of one of your guitars 3 times??? I would have ditched it and started again.

So if you only have to do this twice you are miles ahead
Good luck, oh, and read the instructions next time
Dom

[kiwigeo]

Root cause is relying on working out intonation myself with nut slots not cut to final depth (= strings too high) and then positioning saddle slot based on same.

So, what do you think has been the stuff up Martin? String hight?

I'm not trying to rub it in, just hoping not to make the same mistake.

[kiwigeo]

Yeah the Hauser classical has had 3 backs.....french polish problems due to wood contamination and then back lost its arch. I then merrily scraped through the bindings on one side so had to redo same.

I dont know if Im very patient...some of my problems probably have lack of patience as a root cause.

Hey Martin, I mentioned to Graham the other day how you seem to have incredible patience. Didn't you re-do the back of one of your guitars 3 times??? I would have ditched it and started again.

So if you only have to do this twice you are miles ahead
Good luck, oh, and read the instructions next time
Dom

[jeffhigh]

Hey Martin, I got the innotation wrong when I built my LP Junior last year,
And with a stud mounted bridge /tailpiece I thought I was stuffed.
Managed to file out the tailpiece slots a little and got there eventually without having to plug and redrill.
Much more careful now.
Jeff

[Kim]

I dont know if Im very patient...some of my problems probably have lack of patience as a root cause.

You and me to

Martin do tell, could the "contaminated" back set you replaced have been an opportunity grade set of EIR from Luthiers Mercantile by any chance??? I would be VERY interested to know.

[kiwigeo]

I dont know if Im very patient...some of my problems probably have lack of patience as a root cause.

You and me to

Martin do tell, could the "contaminated" back set you replaced have been an opportunity grade set of EIR from Luthiers Mercantile by any chance??? I would be VERY interested to know.

I think it was. From a different batch from the stuff they recently had on special. I got this stuff about 3 years ago and I've used it on other guitars with no problems.

Cheers Martin

[Kim]

I dont know if Im very patient...some of my problems probably have lack of patience as a root cause.

You and me to

Martin do tell, could the "contaminated" back set you replaced have been an opportunity grade set of EIR from Luthiers Mercantile by any chance??? I would be VERY interested to know.

I think it was. From a different batch from the stuff they recently had on special. I got this stuff about 3 years ago and I've used it on other guitars with no problems.

Cheers Martin

The set I have used came from the $10 per set deal from LM about 3 years ago as well. For the life of me I cannot explain the ridiculous fisheye I am now confronted with. I am talking nearly 5 cent piece sized fisheye in neat Zpoxy! I have washed with shellite 3 or 4 times, clean rag each time then sanded back to bare wood, washed again and still more fisheye, much smaller but it is there When I look close, it really does look like something IN the wood.

Not very cheery

Kim

[kiwigeo]

I pretty much went through the same process....sanded back and washed with Shellite. Didnt help at all. Thought it was the shellac so changed that out but still same result. Surface was breaking up after a day or two.....I wouldnt call them fish eyes....looked like hairline cracks at a distance.

Funny thing is the sides were ok but thats not significant as sides and backs werent matched sets.

Is it worth talking to LMI about this? Others may have had similar problems.


Cheers Martin

The set I have used came from the $10 per set deal from LM about 3 years ago as well. For the life of me I cannot explain the ridiculous fisheye I am now confronted with. I am talking nearly 5 cent piece sized fisheye in neat Zpoxy! I have washed with shellite 3 or 4 times, clean rag each time then sanded back to bare wood, washed again and still more fisheye, much smaller but it is there When I look close, it really does look like something IN the wood.

Not very cheery

Kim