Those Tonerite doobries

[Nick]

Any body had any experience, seen it used by somebody else or played a guitar that's had the Tonerite 'playing in' system used on it? I see they have a couple of 'big name' endorsers in the guitar field (or maybe 3 depending on how big you feel Tim is ) , I'm just wondering if they actually do as they propose or whether it's just a perceived improvement. Interesting concept & if they do work then maybe a good investment but a bit pricey if it's a bottle of snake oil

[Bob Connor]

An aquarium pump is less than 20 bucks and does the same thing

[Kim]

I made the following post around 2 months ago at the OLF re; the tonerite and I stand by these comments:

I really can't see how a specific frequency would be so critical to the success or failure of this concept. Remove all the hype from what you read at a commercial website and look at what is probably going on. The appliance, be it a TR or an aquarium pump, is placed in contact with the bridge/strings to become an actuator. It is my opinion that the affect of the resulting vibrations being transfer into the guitar top over an extended period of time cause friction at an atomic level which acts upon the lignin in the wood to relax it somewhat. This relaxation of the lignin, if true, may assist the top to then move more freely after treatment, especially at the perimeter where larger oscillations would most probably have occurred as a result of higher frequency oscillations radiating out from the bridge where bracings are most substantial. If this 'relaxed lignin' theory is indeed true, then there is further potential benefits for tone and response in the release of those tensions which may be captured within the many individual components of the top by allowing them to spread evenly throughout the whole. It is a combination of both these things that I believe is taking place when a guitar is 'played in' over a long period of time and the effects of the TR/Aquarium pump simply accelerates that normal development.

Back to the point at hand, within reason I do not see how one specific frequency could make that much difference to the outcome. I recall reading the TR website at some stage when this thing first came to light. The general gist was that years of research had revealed that 60Hz was the golden number if you bought a unit in the USA, coincidentally that is the very same number cycles of the USA power supply. In the FAQ's area on the same site it was suggested to an international enquirer that the golden number for Europe was 50Hz, which coincides perfectly with their supply cycles....So is there really any magic number? My guess is 'no', it is just a matter of vibrating the top for what ever period of 'time' it takes to achieve the required atomic disruption at whatever the frequency output is of your chosen actuator. This is of course within reason, too high may take too long, on the other hand I would not advice employing a jackhammer.

The full topic can be viewed at this link:http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/view ... te#p383108

Cheers

Kim

[Nick]

Thanks for that Kim, it's a very "common sense" observation when you think about it & as you & Bob stated, a fish fart pump would acheive the same thing I imagine.

[kiwigeo]

Build your top a bit stronger and then leave it stuck to a highway for a week....

[charangohabsburg]

New on the Savart Journal:

Effect of Vibration Treatment on Guitar Tone: A Comparative Study
B.M. Clemens, Jay Kadis, Daniel Montgomery Clemens, Eli John Pollack, P. Clark, James R Groves

[kiwigeo]

"Statistical analysis showed no significant change in the correlation between treated and untreated guitars due to the vibration treatment."

Myth busted

[jeffhigh]

A very comprehensive well designed study
The sort a manufacturer should carry out before placing a product on the market......

[kiwigeo]

A very comprehensive well designed study
The sort a manufacturer should carry out before placing a product on the market......

But Tonerite HAVE done intensive studies on their product....well they've got a "Research" section on their website...so surely they would have done some "research"???

http://www.tonerite.com/research/

[kiwigeo]

I've actually been working on my own device....unfortunately there's still a bit of fine tuning to be done

[DarwinStrings]

Try something with a little less weight than a jack hammer Martin.

Nice one Markus, you do dig em up, thanks.

Jim

[jeffhigh]

From the tonerite research page
"The amplitude and frequency have been optimized to achieve greater results than playing(with?)yourself"

[charangohabsburg]

I am pretty confident that the tonerite people have done some research which
A) they never will publish or would talk about publicly and
B) has nothing to do with whether their gimmick has some effect on the instrument or not.
The fact that they are still selling it is proof enough that their non published research was spot on.

[kiwigeo]

I've actually been working on my own device....unfortunately there's still a bit of fine tuning to be done

Guitar Wreck.jpg

One thing I discovered was that after treatment with my device the guitar really "opened out".....

[charangohabsburg]

Oh yes it opened up, indeed!
Martin, I'm sure that your device also improved volume for a very short period of time. All you have to work on now is sustain(ability) and you are ready for conquering the market.

[Gsanbrook]

You nay-sayers are implying that guitars do not "open up" with playing time?? Really?

[charangohabsburg]

You nay-sayers are implying that guitars do not "open up" with playing time?? Really?

Nobody is a nay-sayer here, but maybe you should read the article.

[Gsanbrook]

I got the jist of it. I personally don't care how many scientific studies they do that contradicts what I can hear or see with my own ears or eyes. I am not however an easy mojo believer, and am actually quite a skeptic on just about everything. But, I cannot deny improvements from the Tonerite and changes I've hear from new guitars over the years as they get played (which is essentially the same thing).

[charangohabsburg]

But, I cannot deny improvements from the Tonerite and changes I've hear from new guitars over the years as they get played (which is essentially the same thing).

And how can you tell that the changes (improvements) are due to playing and not simply by aging?
Right, you can not tell without doing a thorough study like Measurement of the effect on violins of ageing and playing which I have mentioned here a few years ago, and which showed that no significant differences in sound between the played and the unplayed instrument could be detected.

To believe something is perfectly necessary to substitute knowledge that is neither available nor obtainable by one's own efforts. But denying available knowledge is willful ignorance, something very common back in medieval times.

[DarwinStrings]

Gsanbrook I think one thing this thread proves beyond any shadow of doubt is that Martin has a daggy sense of humour, there also seems to be anecdotal evidence that he is not the only one.

I discovered that my partner has one of these toneright things but hers must be a more expensive version as it has variable frequencies, funny thing is she doesn't play guitar so I guess they work on Oboes too.

Jim

[jeffhigh]

"Changes over the years" was not something the study claims to have disproved.
In fact some minor changes were noted in both the control group and the tonerite group which sat in the same room for the time between initial and final test.
The beauty of this study was it's combination of both player evaluation and measurement so it really was a case of both players could not hear it AND instruments could not show it

[Gsanbrook]

Markus,
Let me ask you straightforward (and I'm not loading a question, just honestly curious).
Do you believe that guitars do not improve their tone over time (whether by playing or age)?

[charangohabsburg]

Instruments change with age, especially within the first weeks after completion. No one here has suggested that such changes would not happen. As the two studies I have mentioned here demonstrate (and actually also say explicitly) those changes must be due to other factors than vibrations of any kind in the magnitude induced by the tonerite or playing, and there are quite a few other factors.

[Gsanbrook]

Well I went back and read the entire article. I'll accept the lack of detection by the scientific side of the study to a degree (IMO they are a little dismissive of the changes that were detected. "Uninteresting"? To who?). But that is not a stickle point with me. As a whole, I'll accept them. Instruments do not have the ability to evaluate quality of sound (the brain filters noise from the desired sound elements, machines do not). In a sense, humans are inherently biased.
For the player evaluations, I don't believe anyone could pick up a guitar and do an a/b comparison that means anything. You would need to be much more aquainted with the guitars to tell anything.
I have to concede the fact that age may be more of a factor than vibrations. As I sat here thinking about this, I remembered an adi topped dread I built that I never liked the sound. No matter how much I played or tonerited it. I ended up giving it to my father in law. He loves it, but doesn't play. It sat in the case for about 3 years until I pulled it out and played it. There was a significant change in tone. Much more mellow, rich. I liked it.
BTW: Every study done can be refuted. It is not necessarily willfull ignorance not to believe them at first glance.
It is one of the principles of scientific study that findings are always under debate.

[jeffhigh]

For the player evaluations, I don't believe anyone could pick up a guitar and do an a/b comparison that means anything. You would need to be much more aquainted with the guitars to tell anything.
.

The way they did the player evaluations is actually a strength of the study, Being double blind it removed the bias of expectations of improvement after tonerite treatment.